KCRW's Left Right & Center SHOW 9.19.08
Moderator's note: I find it quite striking that the Palin-ization of the campaign sparked a blog riot here for two weeks in a row. And now that this week's episode concerned an actual ISSUE in all our lives -- i.e., the economy -- there are far fewer posts. Our blog commenters are an engaged group of citizens (we're really glad you've joined us), and they're here, alongside a very few new post-ers...but this week, far fewer new people have come on board. I wonder if this is a reflection of the bigger notion that issues don't determine elections, it's all about personalities and people's feelings about the candidates. I wonder what that portends for November 4th? By the way, I have just heard about this independently operated (math-obsessed) poll aggregating site that does mathematical analysis and weighting of all polls: I am going to visit it for the first time, and wanted to share it with you: www.fivethirtyeight.com.
Sorry no Arianna today, however that didn't stop the heavy debating as our panel took on the current economic climate!
Wall St Crisis, Capitalism, Obama v McCain/Economy
It’s the topic on everyone’s lips – Market Meltdown. This week Bob, Matt and Tony discuss the biggest bail outs of the week, from AIG to buying out mortgages. They take on the question- deregulation versus regulation? And what is the future for American Capitalism? Our panel debate accountability, the causes and the future of other reforms based on the current situation. And are our presidential candidates equipped to resolve this economic crisis or are they merely commentators on the sidelines? Plus much more when you listen to today’s show.
Comments
Wrong about Bill Clinton "signing off" on Phil
Gramm's deregulation bill...the Republicans passed it over his veto.
Please correct that record.
because it seems like this Wall Street meltdown
is the final act of a plan to rob our economy of it's real value
and leave worthless paper in it's place.
Now the taxpayers are stuck with the cost of paying for
what was stolen by these crooks.
This seems like a Ponzi scheme that was pushed to it's limit.
It seems that this meltdown could have been predicted, and should
have been expected.
From where I sit, it looks like another case of criminal incompetence
and depraved indifference masking outright fraud and thievery by the
folks who run the GOP.
Bob was on his game today and summed up the economic mess very well.
Tony kept the podcast "lie free" and this was an excellent podcast. Like Bill O'Reilly debating Obama during the RNC, Tony represented his real viewpoint, i.e. a rich guy worried about his own pocketbook. And, as he admitted, he's not upset or worried about anything, because he's going to be just fine, he's got plenty of assets. And guess what, if the Bush Tax Cuts expire, he'll still be just fine.
My only dissappointment with the show was that they didn't discuss the perfect style of Sean Hannity during his historic interview of Sarah Palin. If you haven't seen it, look it up on youtube. Sean was masterful and Palin was superb.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d106:SN00900:@@@L&summ2=m&#major%20actions
So why do we say that the bill was veto-proof? It appears it did not have veto-proof support, being along party lines. The latter 90-8 vote in the Senate only approved the Conference Report, i.e., "yes this is compatible with the bill we passed in May."
This shows that the GOP sees the financial system as a Big Game.
For them, buying stocks is gambling. Winners are celebrated and losers
are just losers.
This cynical attitude toward our financial infrastructure tends to
point to the source of our problems: those who see government as
a game to be played instead of foundation to be built upon for all of society.
So interesting that the party modeled on the "Strict Father Model"
comes running home to Mommy when their unregulated delusions
come crashing down on them.
Tony claims he "feels no pain" about this situation - is that shorthand
for "don't blame me" ? Sure sounds like it. So very typical.
His attitude is the same one used by the other Mama's boys from
the GOP who insist on the freedom to do as they please, yet are the
last to realize that their proclamations of moral and legislative superiority
are based on the classic delusions of Social Darwinist idiocy. They are
always the last to take responsibility and the first to cry for help.
They deserve to get exactly as much mercy as they would have offered
to the "hapless victims" who couldn't keep up with their mortgages.
No Flip-Flops included List of McCain Bold Face Lies
(no policy issues, either, just irrefutable lies)
McCain lies:
1. Claimed Obama wants to teach 5 year olds how to have sex.
2. Changed his war story about telling Vietnamese guards his fellow soldiers were Greenbay Packs to Pittsburg Steelers--he was just coincidentally campaigning in Pittsburg at the time of the lie.
3. Keeps insisting Palin stopped the Bridge to Nowhere (she took the money, still trying to build bridge)
4. Said Palin is the most knowledgeable person in the country on Energy.
5. Claims he is anti-Lobbyist (59 of top lobbyists in America are on his campaign staff)
6. Claimed on Meet the Press he never said he didn't know much about the economy (late Tim Russert showed him 3 clips)
7. Claims Palin will help end "cronyism" (she appointed many top staff who just happened to be members of her graduating high school class)
8-9. deleted
10. Campaigned on the record against new GI Bill, now takes complete credit for it (and Bush gave him complete credit as well).
11. Used to say it is immoral to have Bush Tax Cut for wealthy during a war, but now says he truly believes it's patriotic.
12. On CNN he said, "I think that gay marriage should be allowed." After commercial break said "I do not believe that gay marriages should be legal."
13. On CNN he claimed that General Patreus drives around Baghdad in an unguarded SUV, and the General said that wasn't true.
14. On CNN he said he personally walked around Bagdad without an armored vest, meanwhile video shows he was clearly wearing one.
15-17. deleted.
18. On June 4, 2008, he said: "I’ve supported every investigation and ways of finding out what caused the tragedy" in New Orleans. But in 2005/2006 he voted against a study of the government’s response to Katrina. He also opposed three separate emergency funding measures providing relief to Katrina victims.
19. Claims Palin was just quoting Lincoln when she said Iraq was God's war.
20. Says he believes Palin has foreign policy experience because she lives near Russia (maintains straight face)
21. Claims Palin “made decisions” regarding Alaska National Guard (military says she hadn't)
22. Claims he warned the nation about the looming financial crisis 2 years ago, but he didn't.
23. At Fox News GOP forum, McCain said: "in 24 years as a member of Congress, I have never asked for nor received a single earmark or pork barrel project for my state." 2006: $10 million for an academic center named after Justice; 2003: $14 million for “a buffer zone” around Luke Air Force Base, which Bush didn't ask for.
24. On the eve of the 2008 Florida primary, McCain claimed that Mitt Romney had advocated a timetable for withdrawal from Iraq (he had not).
25. McCain said before the war in Iraq, “We will win this conflict. We will win it easily.” Four years later, McCain said he knew all along that the war in Iraq war was “going to be long and hard and tough.”
26. McCain stated: "You know what I enjoyed the most? She (Palin) took the luxury jet that was acquired by her predecessor and sold it on eBay -- made a profit."
27. McCain claims he's received the highest award from every veterans organization: (Received grade “D” from “Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America”;20-percent vote rating from “Disabled Veterans of America”; Vietnam Veterans of America noted McCain had "voted against us" in 15 "key votes;” “American Legion and the Veterans of Foreign Wars: -- with whom McCain claims to have a "perfect voting record" -- both groups vigorously supported Sen. Jim Webb's (D-Va.) GI Bill that McCain tirelessly opposed.")
28-29. deleted
30. McCain railed that Obama snubbed wounded troops in Germany because the press couldn't come with him.
I WILL DELETE AND APOLOGIZE FOR ANY lie allegation THAT CAN BE CLEARLY REFUTED.
Moral bankruptcy precedes any monetary bankruptcy; if we undo the rules of law that prevent the immoral from taking control then we have a series of crises, especially with regard to our financial system. Can we say this unknowingly came about? No. We have to conclude this was engineered.
I like to hear what Matt has to say. He has a much less ideological (and more pragmatic) approach to the economy than Bob and I think that that lends an interesting perspective to the show.
Now that I think of it- I think that Matt did the best job on today's show.
I just wish that there were a little bit more about what exactly could we expect to happen if the TBTF institutions were allowed to die. They talked about the bailouts affecting future spending and who is to blame, but I'd have liked a bit more about what would have happened if there weren't intervention. I know that it would probably make borrowing harder for everyone, but it would've been nice to hear how the effect would spread from the institutions down to ordinary people.
I am an investment manager who was not entirely surprised by this week's events, having seen warnings of the crisis in the balance sheets of the troubled companies and read dire predictions in the commentary of such great investors as David Einhorn, William Gross and (of course) Warren Buffett. I was amused, however, to hear that the only commentator on LRC to get the economic facts right concerning the financial crisis was the liberal on your show (kudos Mr. Scheer), a most unusual occurrence indeed. If only conservatives like Mr. Blankley had educated themselves properly on the functioning of capital markets rather than perpetuating falsehoods, you might not be discussing this financial meltdown at all.
First, the facts... The housing crisis, like a raging fire required fuel and a catalyst. The fuel was interest rates kept too low for too long by a Republican run and influenced Fed, which allowed housing prices to rise quickly and steadily and prompted lenders to become too lax with their standards (e.g., alt-A loans of ten times gross income to people without so much as a pay stub). The catalyst were the deregulatory laws authored by Senator Graham, et. al. and passed by a Republican Congress, which facilitated the creation of a sub-prime market and the proliferation of collateralized mortgage and debt obligations that propagated these bad loans into the portfolios of investment banks, municipal governments and sovereign wealth funds. Once the initial fire was raging, it wasn't long before adjacent markets suffered, like the money market funds that were rescued late Thursday night.
Contrary to the facts, the Republicans are spreading false memes that the liberals are somehow responsible for the financial meltdown because they supported government charters for Freddie and Fannie that allowed the lending giants to take on more leverage than i-banks like Bear, Lehman and Morgan Stanley (i.d., 40x leverage ratio versus 30-35x). Yet Freddie and Fannie were restricted from taking on sub-prime debt and the anticipated losses associated with their loans are generally regarded by bank analysts as running at one-half those of the private market players. Hence, the toxic waste grew far worse outside the government-chartered entities, and players like Freddie and Fannie could hold higher leverage ratios because of lower risk; Mr. Miller's comment that the GSE's leverage was higher is wrong because it ignores their lower risk.
The other false meme is that the liberal-inspired regulations to broaden housing by forcing banks to lend to minorities in inner cities, for example, which is also false because these regulations were implemented much earlier and were not a cause of the reckless alt-A loans that proliferated mostly in the sprawling middle class developments of Riverside, CA, Henderson, NV and the like. While it is understandable that the Republicans would like to revise history to avoid culpability, it is hard not to blame their party for the majority of the crisis, with the remaining blame clearly resting on the overstretched borrowers themselves rather than the Democrats.
Worst of all were Mr. Blankley's comments about pension funds demanding 8% and Wall Street's "creativity" and "productivity" meeting that demand and, therefore, supplying the great American lifestyle. Trading paper for paper or engineering exotic securities so complicated that MIT PhD's in stochastic calculus cannot understand them (much less Mr. Blankley) will not make the economic equivalent of purses out of sow's ears. And Warren Buffett warned about this in 2003. Mr. Blankley's comments are the blueprint of a crisis, not the explanation of American prosperity; they also are proof that he hasn't learned anything during this last week. As Buffett and others have repeatedly explained, the rates of return accorded pension funds will only come through GDP growth and productivity gains, which requires savings and rational investment--not financial engineering of the sort that produces CDO's, CMO's and other toxic waste on AIG, Lehman and other's balance sheets.
Republicans and other conservatives appear foolish pontificating about risks of state overreaction and calling out the government as filled with "crooks and clowns," having just watched the free-marketeers sack and burn Rome. This crisis came about because of the laissez-faire dogma of the GOP and the willingness of Republicans to deliver minimal taxes, interest rates and regulatory oversight at all times and at all costs. And it calls into question the overly simplistic and religious-like devotion to free-market dogma that people like Mr. Blankley share. Economies and markets, like all complex systems, will confound all theories to describe them, including those architected by the likes of Milton Friedman or Friedrich Hayek. More humility and honesty is required. Unfortunately, until people like Mr. Blankley and other Republicans begin to focus on facts rather than dogma and start to recognize past mistakes, the messes on Wall Street and in Washington, D.C. will undoubtedly be repeated.
In the interest of fair and balanced blogging, let me close with a criticism of the more liberals participants on your show...and a prediction. Mr. Paulson, Mr. Bernanke and their respective teams might have an enormous amount of capital markets experience, but they are not "foxes guarding the hen house." Their actions are dictated by real exigencies in the market and transcend politics. They showed a committment to avoid government bailouts when it wouldn't trigger a global meltdown in confidence (e.g., Lehman) but also a pragmatism when moral hazard was the lesser evil. They should be unequivocally commended for their courageous and rapid response. Moreover, while many are rightly concerned about the ultimate cost to the taxpayer of the present fiasco, I would point to bond legend Bill Gross' recent comment that the government will make a prince's ransom off their 80% equity stake in AIG. The debt that the government is taking over is priced so far below intrinsic value that I, like Mr. Gross, am very confident that the tax payer will end up not with a loss in this bailout but with a very handsome return over the next three to five years.
Thanks for another thoughtful show.
Didn't you ever see school house rock? The senate passed a bill and the house passed a bill. Neither became a law. The conference committee hammered out a compromise that Biden did vote for and it became the law after Clinton signed it. Biden can't worm his way out of responsibility for voting yes to the bill that became the law. If that was the case nobody would ever be responsible for anything since most tough bills end up as "conference reports."
I will be intelectually honest and say that many democrats may changed their vote to yes once they realized that Clinton was going to sign it so that they wouldn't be opposing a president of their own party.
A little too long to sift through all of it, but a quick scan was very interesting. thank for the thoughtful addition to the discussion.
Can you give me you take on the Palin-Biden debate, which was just announced today. To tell you the truth, this will probably be the most important event of the whole campaign. More people will watch it than the presidential debates combined probably.
And since Palin insisted on a very controlled debate, she has the potential to wipe the floor with Biden, who would do much better in an open Townhall type format, because he so much knowledge and such a quick wit.
Palin has shown that she is a wonderful actor. Forget president, forget Tina Fey, she could give Merril Streep a run for her money. I'm not being fecitioius. Palin with a script and canned answers is probably the most formidable debater in America. Just wait until the energy question, it might be a little sad to watch.
And Biden gets frustrated easily in the face of dishonesty and phony rhetoric. Palin will have plenty of traps ready for him I'm sure. Carl rove and his scientists you can be sure have full profiled him. And Palin can deliver quite a one-liner as we all saw with the phony "thanks but no thanks" and "lipstick hockeymom schtick. I hate this stuff, but America eats it up like candy.
I recommend Biden and his advisors read through the last three RL&C message boards for a quick tutorial of right-winger tricks.
What do you think?
McCains 25 Biggest Whoopers
No Flip-Flops included, no policy interpretations included– Just Bold-Faced McCain Lies supported by clear evidence.
Compiled by Barry Dalton, private citizen
Evidence-Based McCain lies:
1. Claimed Obama wants to teach 5 year olds how to have sex.
2. While campaigning in Pittsburgh, told a local TV station that he lied to his Vietnamese guards, giving the names of the Pittsburgh Steelers Defensive Line. His own book says it was the Green Bay Packers.
3. Keeps insisting Palin stopped the Bridge to Nowhere (she took the money, still trying to build bridge)
4. When questioned about her foreign policy experience by WCSH in Portland, Maine, on September 11, 2008, McCain said Palin is the “most knowledgeable person in the country on energy.”
5. Claims he is anti-Lobbyist (59 of top lobbyists in America are on his campaign staff)
6. Claimed on Meet the Press he never said he didn't know much about the economy (late Tim Russert showed him 3 clips)
7. Claims Palin will help end "cronyism" (meanwhile high-level Alaska government positions were filled by members of her graduating high school class)
8. Repeatedly insisted Obama called Palin a pig.
9. On a Aug 2008 interview on “The View” insisted that Palin requested zero “earmarks” as governor. (in fact, her requests are in the top 3 of per-capita earmark requests in the nation)
10. Campaigned on the record against new GI Bill, now takes full credit for the Bill.
11. Used to say it is immoral to have Bush Tax Cut for wealthy during a war, but now says he truly believes it's patriotic.
12. On CNN he said, "I think that gay marriage should be allowed." After commercial break said "I do not believe that gay marriages should be legal."
13. On CNN he claimed that General Patreus drives around Baghdad in an unguarded SUV, and the General said that wasn't true.
14. On CNN he said he personally walked around Baghdad without an armored vest, meanwhile video shows he was clearly wearing one.
15.On June 4, 2008, he said: "I’ve supported every investigation and ways of finding out what caused the tragedy" in New Orleans. But in 2005/2006 he voted against a study of the government’s response to Katrina; also opposed 3 emergency funding measures.
16. Claims Palin was just quoting Lincoln when she said Iraq was God's war.
17. Says he believes Palin has foreign policy experience because she lives near Russia.
18. Claims Palin “made decisions” regarding Alaska National Guard (military says she hasn't)
19. Claims he warned the nation about the looming financial crisis 2 years ago, but he didn't.
20. At Fox News GOP forum, McCain said: "in 24 years as a member of Congress, I have never asked for nor received a single earmark or pork barrel project for my state." 2006: $10 million for an academic center named after Justice Renquist; 2003: $14 million for “a buffer zone” around Luke Air Force Base, which Bush didn't ask for.
21. On the eve of the 2008 Florida primary, McCain claimed that Mitt Romney had advocated a timetable for withdrawal from Iraq (he had not).
22. McCain said before the war in Iraq, “We will win this conflict. We will win it easily.” Four years later, McCain said he knew all along that the war in Iraq war was “going to be long and hard and tough.”
23. McCain stated: "You know what I enjoyed the most? She (Palin) took the luxury jet that was acquired by her predecessor and sold it on eBay -- made a profit."
24. Claims he's received the highest award from every veterans organization: (Received grade “D” from “Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America”;20-percent vote rating from “Disabled Veterans of America”; Vietnam Veterans of America noted McCain had "voted against us" in 15 "key votes;” “American Legion/Veterans of Foreign Wars--with whom McCain claims to have a "perfect voting record" -- both groups vigorously supported Sen. Jim Webb's (D-Va.) GI Bill that McCain “tirelessly opposed.")
25. McCain railed that Obama snubbed wounded troops in Germany because the press couldn't come with him.
I WILL DELETE AND APOLOGIZE FOR ANY lie THAT CAN BE CLEARLY REFUTED.
One speaker was trying to imply that the current crisis is the result of deregulation ('Glass-Stiegel was repealed'). Another was trying to say it was too much regulation ('liberal government pushing home ownership on the poor'). Each of them is so attached to their ideological predispositions that neither can see around their respective pair of rose colored glasses.
With the demise of pensions and
One speaker was trying to imply that the current crisis is the result of deregulation ('Glass-Stiegel was repealed'). Another was trying to say it was too much regulation ('liberal government pushing home ownership on the poor'). Each of them is so attached to their ideological predispositions that neither can see around their respective pair of rose colored glasses.
With the demise of pensions and supposedly of Social Security too, many millions are being dumped into the market every week through 401k plans. Basically, this money has had no where to go, so Wall Street geniuses invented places to invest it. After all, no one wants to settle for the returns of a T-bill when there are ‘smarter’ things to do. The crisis is about too much money chasing the best possible return and Wall Street selling these all too willing buyers untested products that probably weren't the best thought out. Yes, many bankers acted criminally. Yes, many brokerage houses are culpable, but there’s plenty of blame to go around. Caveat emptor.
FYI: Mortgage-backed securities existed years before Glass-Stiegel was repealed.
I would like to throw some blame around since everyone else seems to feel the need.
The regulators that were more concerned with making sure low income people could get home loans and would keep banks from being allowed to expand or even making fines if they did not have a high enough "CRA Rating".
There are the Clinton era regulations (drafted while he had a democrat congress) that allowed for the Securitization of sub prime mortgages.
In 2003 Bush wanted to put new oversight regulations in place against Fannie and Freddie but he was opposed by (according to the NY times) "Congressional Democrats who fear that tighter regulation of the companies could sharply reduce their commitment to financing low-income and affordable housing" with Barney Frank, a democrat, saying "''These two entities -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- are not facing any kind of financial crisis." and "'The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.''
I really hope the conservatives continue this arguments liberals causing the crisis because of their home-ownership agenda.
Like it's a terrible thing that liberals want everyone, including the working poor, to be able to afford a home.
Talk about elitists.
I almost don't want to say anything, because everytime they say something like this, Obama gets another vote.
I mean the cajones these rightwingers have is amazing.
However you want to trash the Clintons, they left the Republicans a balance sheet and budget that was in excellent shape. McCain and the Republicans gained control and proceeded to dismantle every governmental protection we had in the country. And now look at the mess. Our federal budget has rarely been in worse shape thanks to the Ripoff-and-Spend Republican elite. Our economy is in shambles. Our foreign policy is an international joke and thousands of Americans have died to make Iran more powerful. Thanks but no thanks John McCain. If we want another Bush we'll elect Neil Bush, whose failed savings and loan cost taxpayers $1 billion in the 1980s.
We starting to get the picture here folks? Republicans love free-market profits and socialized risk. Leaving taxpayers with the mess and the bills.
Ben, the feeling need not be mutual, but I like the cut of your gib, young fella.
I'm still confused, though, why Matt Miller hasn't spoken up on this message board yet, extolling the virtue of Sean Hannity's historic, hard hitting (yet respectful) interview of Sara Palin? I thought Hannity's style was spot-on, though I admit I watched the interview with the sound all the way down.
McCains 26 Biggest Whoopers
No Flip-Flops included, no policy interpretations included– Just Bold-Faced McCain Lies supported by clear evidence.
Compiled by Barry Dalton, private citizen
Evidence-Based McCain lies:
26. McCain called the pleadings of innocent families of V-nam MIA's the "bizarre rantings of the MIA hobbyists" as well as "hoaxers," "charlatans," "conspiracy theorists" and "dime-store Rambos."
McCains 27 Biggest Whoppers
No Flip-Flops included, no policy interpretations included– Just Bold-Faced McCain Lies supported by clear evidence.
Compiled by Barry Dalton, private citizen
Evidence-Based McCain lies:
27. At a joint Palin-McCain townhall, he said, "I also know, if I might remind you, that she is commander of the Alaska National Guard. In fact, you may know that on Sept. 11 a large contingent of the Alaska Guard deployed to Iraq and her son happened to be one of them." (nice story if it were true, but her son's in the Army and her commandership has nothing to do with foreign policy, which is federal)
After last weeks little blip, this week we are back to the usual LRC excellence - spot on commentary from everyone’s perspective. I really appreciate Robert’s deep knowledge and the background information he provides. Also, it was great to hear Tony’s comment that what is happening today is too complicated for even him full understand. I think that once we can admit that we don’t always know the answers, we are at the point where we can really begin to learn.
I did want add to something Robert had said regarding the end of the Reagan Revolution. The reason we are at this breaking point goes back 30 years to the breaking up of the labor movement and includes changes to the labor legislation and in the Labor Board.
With stagnating wages the only way workers have been able to maintain there standard of living is by working longer hours (2 to 3 jobs), the whole family working and, ultimately the utilization of credit when the preceding was not enough.
Here is a series of interesting interviews regarding the current crisis together with some background detail (back 30 years)
http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33&Itemid=74&jumival=101
two thoughts on this week's podcast:
1) it sure looks like's Sarah Palin's 15 minutes of fame is about over. Too bad it had to be at the hands of the greatest financial crisis in this nation's recent memory.
2) Matt's last point about the fall-out of this financial crisis on the next administration's agenda (re: inability to advance social programs & the environment), is salient. Although improbable, I do see a small opening for new progress. How?
a) We can no longer afford our for-profit, fee-for-service health care approach that leaves too many seeking care in our public emergency rooms. Universal coverage through a nationally comprehensive health insurence pool is not only humane and decent, but substantially cheaper! We've run out of time for this 'around the margin's' health care reform debate.
b) We can no longer afford subsidies to oil companies to make off-shore drilling and other unprofitable dry-land drilling economical. The free market must now rain on energy!
I still don't understand why the Matt-Miller endorsed interview of Sarah Palin by Sean Hannity hasn't gotten any mention. Try watching it with the sound down like I did. Visually, it was spot on.
This snippet from the NYT should terrify all of us:
" . . . the financial system needs more capital. And if the government is going to provide capital to financial firms, it should get what people who provide capital are entitled to — a share in ownership, so that all the gains if the rescue plan works don’t go to the people who made the mess in the first place.
"... But Mr. Paulson insists that he wants a “clean” plan. “Clean,” in this context, means a taxpayer-financed bailout with no strings attached — no quid pro quo on the part of those being bailed out. Why is that a good thing? Add to this the fact that Mr. Paulson is also demanding dictatorial authority, plus immunity from review “by any court of law or any administrative agency,” and this adds up to an unacceptable proposal.
" . . . the Bush administration says that the sky is falling, and that to save the world we have to do exactly what it says now now now."
I feel sick to my stomache, like we're headed toward fascism or something.
As to your Clinton observations, they stand correct at face value, but I think there's a deeper story. In short, a simple, compelling case can be made: that the Clinton's were the hired political arm of WalMart. This includes NAFTA, GAT, the WTO, and Most-Favored Trade Nation status for China. Subsequently, the Walton family made very large investments in Chinese manufacturing, and began massive importation of Chinese goods. Sam Walton even won a Chinese national award for his efforts.
Also, you might be interested in Greg Michael's YouTube interview with one Kay Griggs ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOaw45B-DWM ). She says a lot of very strange things, some linking the Clinton and Bush families.
McCains 28 Biggest Whoppers
No Flip-Flops included, no policy interpretations included– Just Bold-Faced McCain Lies supported by clear evidence.
Compiled by Barry Dalton, private citizen
Evidence-Based McCain lies:
#28. On Sept. 15, McCain redefined “fundamentals” to cover his gaffe about the economic crisis that his top economic advisor Phil Graham helped engineer, leaving American workers holding the bill: "Still the fundamentals of our economy are strong.” When criticized, he then claimed he meant “American workers.” (Once again, we “the fundamentals” are the idiots for again not understanding what he “really” meant.)
Note: So, that means McCain was actually saying: American workers shouldn't worry they just got screwed again because they are still strong (they can take it)
This is a question that has been bouncing around by alleged mind for several days. And now that you ask and because I have absolutely no idea, I just cannot resist speculating. (It's a sickness)
I'm thinking that if there were no bailouts, the U.S .financial system would likely collapse. These companies are so excessively leveraged, there is no money to back anything up. The biggest problem right now is all those folk with money invested for their retirement. This money could disappear pretty quickly without the government stepping in to protect it. Yes the tax payer has to pay, but the tax payer needs to do this to protect him/herself.
Perhaps our investment manager EC could jump in here.
I do think though that the perpetrators should feel some repercussions for their misappropriation of other people’s money. I don’t care for the word punishment, but we tell our kids that there are consequences for their actions. This should apply here
The latest was the Community Reinvestment Act, passed in 1977 and mandating loans to poorer communities, somehow caused the current crisis. EC covered this in his comment, and it's simply wrong. More info here:
http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2008/09/cra_again.php
Matt and Bob really should skim the conservative websites before each session, that's where Tony gets misdirected.
Bob made a mistake this time too, though. Hillary's proposed foreclosure moratorium wouldn't have helped the current crisis that's caused by the housing bubble and over-leveraging. It might have actually made the crisis happen earlier - I'm not sure if that would be worse, but I don't see how it would make the financial crisis less severe.
(Standard disclaimer - while I only write about my complaints, LRC is a good show or I wouldn't listen.)
There is plenty of blame to go around and the CRA and Freddie and Fannie are at the core and Congress should get most of the blame for failing to act. From the article: "Fannie alone owned or guaranteed more than $388 billion in high-risk mortgage investment"
The brakes could have been put on this earlier, Bush sounded the warning years ago but Democrats blocked that just like they blocked a 2005 bill (Cosponsored by John McCain).
I would like to appologize for my comment above (and if it could be deleted, I'd appreciate it.
I got Church of Scientology and Christian Scientist confused.
My appologies.
1. Your link says nothing, at all, about the CRA.
2. Repubs had a majority in the Senate in 2005, something the author somehow manages to overlook, and it didn't pass. Presumably because the R's didn't really want it to, either.
3. Fannie is only one part of the mess. The current $700b price tag is above and beyond it and Freddie.
4. Bush Admin does deserve some credit for trying to regulate Fannie in '02 (even if it was just to push business to pure Republican Wall Street firms), but Bushies missed every other opportunity to stop the housing bubble or to regulate the shadow banking system.
5. You might not have noticed this, but you were citing to Kevin "Dow 36,000" Hassett. Yeah, I know, but you should complain to Bloomberg for giving that guy a platform.
McCains 29 Biggest Whoppers
No Flip-Flops included
No. 29: John McCain as Sergeant Schultz from Hogan's Heroes: "I see nothing, I hear nothing"
I transcribed today's interview of John McCain by Merredith Vierra (lies underlined):
Vierra: Carly Fiorina left with what I think was a $45 million golden parachute while 20,000 of her employees were laid off. She's an example of exactly the kind of person you say is the root of the problem.
McCain: I don't think so.
Vierra: How can you say that?
McCain: Because I think she did a good job as CEO in many respects. I don't know the details of her compensation package. But she's one of many advisers that I have.
Vierra: But she did get a $45 million golden parachute after being fired while 20,000 of her employees were laid off.
McCain: I have many of the people and I do not know the details of what happened.
Vierra: This woman was obviously, again, the public face on your economic policies. How can you not know the details of her past. I mean that would be awfully important.
McCain launches into narrative, as usual, instead of directly answering a question: I know she was a very successful business woman, started out as a part-time secretary, and made her way to the top of the corporate ladders. One of the biggest CEOs in the United Sates of America (and then he saluted).
To sum up: He knows Fiorina's narrative but no details, even when the details are repeated to him.
A reasonable estimate - based on population, family sizes, and home-ownership ratios — suggests there are fewer than 75 million mortgages in the US. Let's assume, conservatively, half of them are "sub prime" and that 80 per cent of those are in trouble.
That means about 30 million mortgages in trouble. Further assume that sub-prime mortgages average about $300,000 and it seems the total amount in danger of not being paid back is about $9 billion - assuming the houses, on which the mortgages are based, are worthless.
Why are governments all over the world doling out hundreds of billions to various financial institutions when $9 billion given directly to the troubled home owners would have eliminated the sub prime crisis which supposedly caused all this in the first place? - Yours, etc,
What do you make of that?
I agree completely. No kidding, I was about to come on and post:
How many new houses could the U.S. build and resale at low interest for $700 Billion? I say, let Wall Street do it's thing. If people lose their homes, the government seems to have plenty of money lying around to help average folks.
Of course, the article you cite makes more sense than my proposal.
My point is this: SINCE WE're NOT getting anything in return for the money--it's totally free money (cash for trash). It's not an investment, or a loan that will be paid back. You ever heard of somebody getting that big amount of money and NOT have to pay it back? With zero accountablity for Santa Claus Paulson?
Bush spent the first 3/4 of his presidency cyphoning trillions to his oil buddies and "reconstruction buddies" in Iraq, now he's going to give another trillion to his Wall Street pals. Plus, they want another tax cut. Do you know more than a $trillion is unnaccounted for in the Iraq war?
I say, vote the Republicans out and let's start from scratch.
You have a point, I think there is plenty of bi-partisan blame to go around and Republicans in congress did not ram this through no matter what the rules. Keep in mind that the magic vote number in the Senate is 60 and the Republicans had 55 seats at this time.
No doubt, like I said, plenty of blame to go around but to deny Fannie and Freddie has any role in this mess is folly. There are plenty of borrowers, lenders, regulators, congressmen and senators at fault here.
At least he tried to do something.
I would have quoted the guy that wrote a rebuttle to the Prospect piece but he's said even stranger stuff in the past. I guess if we can post on a blog about a show that has Robert Scheer as a panelist I should get a little latitude to quote people who have said strange stuff in the past.
Nice to meet you, Mr. Rightguy. There used to be a guy in here by your name who only told half-truths. Thanks for the info.
Still, giving a $trillion to Paulson to do whatever he sees best with, and to give it to the same people who got us into this mess, sounds unreasonable.
Let's give it to the middle class, instead, who will either spend it or pay off their credit cards and mortgages. The rich have shown they aren't responsible enough to be trusted.
Just too greedy.
(No Flip-Flops included: You can change your mind but stop lying to us John McCain)
#30: McCain sent his top staffer to falsely accuse
Biden’s son, Hunter: “His son is a lobbyist for the credit card and banking industry." Truth: Hunter was a vice president and then a consultant for a Delaware-based bank and credit card company.Note: Should we now throw everyone who has ever worked at a bank under McCain's bus? And I thought children were off limits.
http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2008/09/cra_again.php
My article linked to the Wiki on the CRA which includes a section of Criticisms of the CRA along with links to their original articles which includes Liebowitz article, the Robert Gordon's article you sited and the DiLorenzon rebuttle to Gordon.
The gist of the critics argument is that the changes made to the CRA in the 90's helped lay the groundwork and are covered in a section of the wiki.
Your link proves nothing. My link proves nothing. I would suggest that we are engaging in honest debate and are posting links that help bolster our respective positions and I appreciate that you post links so that I can make honest judgements of where your information comes from just as you can see where I get my information.
We’re honored by Bob Scheer’s breadth of knowledge and political history. He is a national treasure and should be shared. I don’t know how he feels about it or how his schedule is, but I think he would make a good complement to the round table panel on This Week with George Stephanopolous. They need balance to Will, Radatz, Donaldson, Roberts, to which Brazile is mismatched. Though I do consider ABC somewhat a “mini-fox” and hostile territory, it may explain why Zarkaria and Van Den Heuvel and Arianna make fewer appearances (possibly by viewer blog campaigns to bounce them). Meet the Press is still number 1, but viewership on This Week needs exposure beyond what they currently offer.
Send us a sign Bob! I for one, am ready to write them.This crisis reflects capitalism and deregulation run amok, starting with
1. The idea that debt is equivalent to wealth.
2. The idea that you can finance consumer spending and run the economy by means of consumer debt.
3. Concentrating the world’s wealth in the hands of the wealthiest few, who don’t need to spend it on things and so they start looking for investments with higher and higher yields. Too much money chases not enough real wealth, essentially bidding up the price to ridiculous levels, first in dot coms, then in housing. Where will it go next?
4. An incentive system that paid loan originators off the top to make bad loans and then sell them “downstream” to investors without accountability. Most of the loot was gotten away with by mortgage salespeople and secondary market securitizers, who took advantage of borrowers and investors alike.
5. Paying originators large sums out of proportion to any work they did, up front, to make bad loans and get paid regardless of whether the loan is good or bad.
6. The innovation of securitization, which inflates the value of assets by separating them from the activitities of the loan makers, then divides the proceeds in incomprehensible ways among “waterfalls” of “tranches” that are then swapped, collateralized and no one understands what all. This allowed brokers and originators to get rid of bad loans with impunity until the bubble burst. This is essentially a Ponzi scheme attempting to thrust unsustainable levels of short term profit into a long term future. The inventors may have been the smartest guys in the room, but the urban proletariat would not have invented these complex securitizations, and that would have been a good thing.
7. A corporate system that allows shell corporations to be conduits that lack financial responsibility to make good for the wrongs they’ve done. Mortgage lenders and brokers just go bankrupt leaving their loans behind.
8. Loan products and investment products that are too complicated to understand, leaving people to rely on trust, faith and fantasy in a world where trust was neither wanted nor forced.
9. A dysfunctional morass of laws and regulations that allowed the lending industry to get away with it. Most of it is at the federal level and is politically attributable to Republicans, although Democrats went along, and to our money driven political system that leaves those of modest means helpless when pitted against the wealthy.
Blankley is full of garbage when he blames it all on the pension funds by which working people who aren’t cashing in on the Bush tax cuts hope to have money to survive in retirement. Pension funds are also victims of Wall Street’s scams. He and the Republicans are also full of it blaming the Community Reinvestment Act for somehow requiring banks and other mortgage lenders make bad loans. These lenders chose to make them and really never claimed or cared much about CRA credit, often because the kept their subprime lender as a separate entity and ran segregated credit markets. Similarly Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, despite some problems, were not the real abusers, as most subprime loans and abusive terms were not eligible for Fannie and Freddie.
We should not blame the victims. Despite the claim that lenders went out to homeless shelters and street people giving mortgages to people who don’t deserve help, most borrowers are only guilty of believing the experts, not being able to understand complex documents that confuse lawyers and are only understood by insiders, and having too much optimistic faith in the future. Most could have handled a decent mortgage loan but were handed a bad one.
Who we need to bail out are all the homeowners who were talked and tricked into making bad loans by the sophisticated, unregulated and commission driven mortgage industry. America's homeowners are as important to the success of America and America's economy as all these market players. And what good comes from foreclosing on millions of homes and destroying the lives of millions of families, along with their neighbors and their communities? Legislatures and regulators must be criticized for waiting too long to act and for being too protective of the secondary mortgage market, which too many saw as a goose laying golden eggs. But to restore confidence in the economy, the government should buy the bad loans at a deep discount and then modify them (at least for owner occupants rather than speculators) to get rid of “toxic” features. They need to eliminate all the upward rate adjustments from the initial “teaser rates,” reduce loan principals to the real appraised value rather than the bogus appraisals the originators purchased and eliminate other predatory features. This needs to be done on a mass basis as neither borrowers nor industry can handle intense case by case examinations. Once loans are modified to sustainable terms, they can be sold to the private sector and the taxpayers can recover much of their costs, as was done with Home Owners' Loan Corporation during the depression.
Since the securitization eggs may sometimes be too complex to unscramble, we also need to allow bankruptcy courts to modify untenable loans and save peoples homes, eliminating an industry loophole. Congress also needs to fund the staffing of loan modifications, provide counselors and lawyers for homeowners assistance, and keep an eye on the process so it’s not just giving a blank check to the lending industry in one last big ripoff .
Here's what you and Robert Scheer are missing:
Robert S, who knows a ton more about me on this subject, nevertheless keeps claiming that loan officers accepted false property value assessments. I'm afraid this is seeing the forest instead of the trees.
The truth is that home values have been hyper-inflated over the past few decades. People are paying 200,000 for a home that 25 years ago would have been valued at maybe 80,000. You could get a very decent "prior-owned" home in a small town for about $20,000. Now, you can't get it for less than $100,000. In fact in most medium-sized communities, if you buy a house for less than $100,000 you will be in a quote unquote "bad neighborhood."
At the same time, the market has pushed everyone to build or buy a new home instead of buying "prior-owned" home.
And, finally, the loan for an $100,000 home over 30 years actually works out that you will end up paying over $400,000 for it. The first few years, if you are making a $1000/monthly payment, less than $100 goes toward the principle.
So, even if the bank forecloses on your home, chances are you had more than paid for the home, but since the principal is at the end of the term, you have been paying mostly "interest" in the first few years.
My point is, this is all "fake" and "on paper". So, if you are going to pay cash for trash on Wall Street, to supposedly save home owners. Why don't we bypass the middle-man--the banks--and look at people's loans who are in trouble, and assess how much have they actually paid and apply that to their principal instead of their interest. Then come up with a reasonable and lower amount of interest and set up a payment plan so that the owner isn't forced to by 4 times the worth of a home, which had an initial sticker price that was already inflated 4 times it's real value.
Instead of writing a blank check to Wall Street, why can't Congress instead pass a law to make Wall Street tough it out, take their losses, and use the government's power and money to restructure the loans and erase the debts while still expecting the homeowner to continue paying a "payable price" based on their income and assets.
Problem solved.
For homehomers who accept the restructuring of their loans to prevent foreclosures, they must agree to the following:
1. Their home loan is now tied to their SSN and is reflected on their paystub as a Deduction or Debit from their paycheck. They do not make payments on their own. The government automatically deducts it from their paycheck.
2. If, for any reason, the debtor loses his job, his "credit" is locked down until new employment is found. Meanwhile, the payment is taken from Social Security payments in the future.
3. Also, if they lose their job, all credit is locked down so that they cannot sign up for any credit or service other than basic utilities and telephone: They can't buy a car, they can't buy a TV on credit, they can't get a credit card, they can't sign up for cable TV or the Internet, they can't make long-distance phone calls, etc.
4. Of course a hardship waiver would be available for special circumstances, such as salesman's need to buy a car, etc.
First idea would be ok. However a high stakes bailout is happening, in part because the system functions on trust and credit and once people started going under the trust dried out. Just like we can't go for long without air, the econjomic system can't go on long without interbank and business loans.
I didn't mention the issue of housing values which are of course based on what people say and think they are. The ethnic origin of the neighborhood can make a big difference as can other irrational factors. On the coasts there was a lot more price inflation than in the midwest, in part because the ocean limits where houses can be built. Of course there are more people being born so houses must be built. We have chosen to build fancy houses and avoid small ones from bygone eras. In any case people came to expect housing prices to inflate. This allowed people to finance consumer debt from their home equity, but also let loan originators promise to refinance bad loans in the future. Eventually the housing price bubble burst, particularly on the coasts. The whole thing bears an uncanny resemblance to the crash of 1929 with all the leveraging and margin. Plus investors chasing unrealistically high yields.
Your second point seems extreme and punitive, and hopefully is in jest. In practice there is no centralized way to "lock down" someone's credit. Working people do not get social security until they are retired or totally disabled, so that part seems unrealistic. I also wonder why you want to impose all these draconian conditions on someone just to save his home. Congress doesn't seem to be imposing anything on Wall Street for their $700 billion, although Robert Reich and Dennis Kucinich think we should. People are certainly tolerant of heavy handed authoritarianism these days of post 9/11 and a monstrous criminal justice system.
You're points are well-taken, and I'd like to cop out and say I was jesting, but I was serious. Anyhoo, nobody in their right mind is going to take my suggestions on financing anyway. But I thank you. Are the first person and likely the last who will take any of my financial ideas seriously.
I understand a lot of economics is psychological...i.e. i must believe this piece of paper and this number on my computer screen is really worth something.
Bottom line is: Housing priceless, irregardless of neighborhood, are inflated across the board. And not just a little bit. And when you have draconian interest rates, reversed in order to get the excessive interest paid first, you are going to have home buyers who are more slave than owner.
I believe health care and responsible home ownership are human rights, not priveleges. Meanwhile, the rich bankers, as you can see reflected in posts above, believe home ownership is a privelege not deserved by working poor or lower middle class. That's why they "set up" phony loans and have no problem foreclosing, then suing, and reselling, and profiteering at the expense of the home buyer.
BECAUSE THEY DONT THINK THOSE PEOPLE DESERVED HOUSES IN THE FIRST PLACE.
(No Flip-Flops included: You can change your mind everyday if you want but stop lying to us John McCain)
#31: McCain lies that his surge "began" the Sunni Awakening. On CBS, July 22, 2008, McCain said: "Because of the surge, we were able to go out and protect that sheik and others. And it began the Ambar Awakening. I mean that's just a matter of history."
Truth: Sept 29, 2006: Military announced Ambar Awakening (about 2 months before "talk of the possibility of a surge."
(No Flip-Flops included: You can change your mind everyday if you want but stop lying to us John McCain)
#32: On June 10, 2008, Newsweek asked McCain about his criticism of media that they were not being fair to Hillary Clinton (not a typo--yes, Hillary Clinton). He said: "I did not--that was in prepared remarks, and I did not. I'm not in the business of commenting on the press and their coverage or not coverage."
Truth: June 3, 2008, McCain, in prepared remarks, said: "Sen. Clinton has earned great respect for her tenacity and courage. The media often overlooked how compassionately Sen. Clinton spoke to the concerns and dreams of millions of Americans (and then he saluted) and she deserves a lot more appreciation than she sometimes received."
Note to press: In McCain's world, "prepared remarks" means he didn't really say it, the paper he's reading did. Get with the program, or get off the bus.
McCain's 33 Biggest Whoppers
(No Flip-Flops included: You can change your mind everyday if you want but stop lying to us John McCain)
#33:
On Sept. 22, 2008, McCain lied: "Actually, she bought it -- I believe -- herself, but yes she does have a Toyota Prius because it ... saves on fuel efficiency," McCain said.But in an October 2007speech he bragged: "OK, Prius, Prius. I ought to know the name of it; I paid for it."
Great question. Several short answers:
Red Flag 1: Most important. Look if there is a "pattern of lying." Has this type of "error" happenend repeatedly or is it an isolated case? If it has not happened that often, then we can give the benefit of the doubt.
Red Flag 2: Look if there could be any possible motive or benefit for such an "error." If someone is campaigning in Pittsburgh and the only time he's ever made the "error" was in Pittsburg. Well, given Flag 1, it starts to be hard to believe.
Red Flag 3: Does he correct it immediately? Or within a few hours (before anyone else notices). If not, flags 2&3 start getting brighter red.
Red Flag 4: Is it something that is very personal. Does the person repeat the same mis-statement more than once? Does someone ask him, "really?" and still it does not occur to him he has just said something false...well, it's just common sense at this point. A lie is a lie.
Red Flag 5: Does the liar add personal details to support the lie, such as "the Steelers really made a huge impression on me particularly in my early years"
Wow: if you don't recognize this as a whopper, there can only be 3 possible reasons:
a) you're in love with tax-cuts for the wealthy
b) you're in love with Pro-Life superstar Palin
c) well, you know the third one already--i'm not going to call anyone dumb today, so don't try to goad me into it.
Reply to private message in regard to #2 above.
Red Flag #2: There's a weird thing about "errors" in that "errors" tend to make the error-maker look bad. In other words, the mistake, if believed, does not usually benefit the teller politically. And, if the pattern of errors, what do you know, all benefit the speaker, well, like I said a lie is a lie is a pattern of lies.
Looks like the rightwing lie machine is gearing up again.
After what seemed like a reasonable argument, Rightguy finished with: "Paulson said to look at the bailout as an investment by the taxpayers that may have a beneficial return. "
The Key Phrases are:
"Paulson said" and
"look at" and
"may have"
These are all Red Flags for a lie. Never mind that none of the sentence is actually true if stated without these phrases:
"The bailout as an investment by the taxpayers"
This is a lie because Paulson's proposal does not call for a "return" or "interest" on the so-called investment. No return, then no investment. It's called a zero-interest, no-fault loan.
"IF" and it's a "big if" the government is able to resell the worthless paper it buys, then that money will return to the treasury.
Again, we're supposed to believe this...and we can not call those people who really do believe this lie, dumb. So I will stop saying dumb.
Anyone who believes this lie is "gullible"
Who writes the rightwing Talking Points?
Most people believe it's Carl Rove, and for awhile i believed that too, but i'm not so sure anymore. For awhile I thought it might be Tony Blankley. He's just the right mixture of intelligent/clever and known/obscure.
On the Sep. 9-10 episode of Hannity and Colmes, Sean actually claimed credit for it: "I write the talking points."
I don't believe this boast because I don't think the real author would admit it. I also don't think he has the intellect to construct them. But maybe he would try to cover for the actual author.
That's why I now believe the primary author of the Talking Points is Roger Ailes.
Red Flag: you know it's a talking point if the TP is used to answer questions that have nothing to do with the TP. Or if the questioner tries to explore the nuances around the talking point, the TPer refuses to give any ground on the TP.
McCain's 34 Biggest Whoppers
(No Flip-Flops included: You can change your mind everyday if you want but stop lying to us John McCain)
#1:
On Sep 21, 2008, McCain begged the New York Times to believe that Rick Davis, his top campaign manager "has had nothing to do with" Freddie Mac. He also said, "I'll be glad to have his record examined by anybody who wants to look at it."Truth: Rick Davis was secretly paid $15,000/month for two years up to AUGUST 2008 because: "he [Davis] was John McCain's campaign manager and it was felt you couldn't say no," said one of the sources.
Note: This is the new #1, the current sex ed #! will now be #34.
"How ghost-writing letters to the editor for McCain works"
Anyone want to know if Mr X and Ockraz are real? At least I'm a git who uses my real name.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/09/24/mccain_letters/
We don't even know if these guys are really Americans.
I think that perhaps you're being uncharacteristically ungenerous- or maybe too quick to judge, when you say:
Reasons that I, personally, haven't been as interested in commenting this week include:
1-There is an unusual abundance of consensus on this weeks issue.
2-There is a far greater than normal lack of information and understanding about this issue where the layperson is concerned.
3-Barry Dalton's annoying new ploy.<more to come>
P.S. I've been checking 538.com every day for months. The poll data seems to get up quicker than on Real Clear Politics. There are also polls that 538 reports on that RCP doesn't seem to use. On the other hand, I don't put much stock in 538's predictions: they vary from day to day based on the current polls- if there is that much flux and uncertainty, then I'd rather just look at the data without prognostications that will change a week later. 538 only keeps a chart of national tracking (which is pretty much pointless), but RCP keeps tracking graphs for all of the swing states. I keep a notebook with the average numbers week to week for each state plus DC to track the electoral college trends anyway.
P.P.S. Welcome back from vacation.
I don't know whether to be flattered or very flattered, Okraz. Number 3, huh?
I'll make a deal with the 3 rightwingers who keep posting talking points and half-truths on this blog--if you stop posting lies and distortions, I'll stop posting period. By the way I'm just as big a fan of this show as you are. I've been listening to it on my i-pod since it was first offered online, or close to it.
McCain's 35 Biggest Whoppers
(No Flip-Flops included: You can change your mind everyday if you want but stop lying to us John McCain)
#35: Sept 7, 2008, interview on WXYZ-TV, Detroit, McCain said, "Cindy and I own an automobile that's American-made."
Truth: They currently own at least 13 cars, 10 American and 3 foreign, not counting ones purchased for family members.
-I think that there is general consensus that most people are worried (despite a somewhat nebulous understanding) to the point where they are hoping that the government will do something quickly (even though they are angry with the situation). We're hoping to avert disaster and want action /FAST/, even though we may not understand how effective it will be or what the consequences will be.
-Whatever we do, everyone will dislike it. If nothing is done, (or we don't act in haste) everyone would dislike that too. Lawmakers are in a no-win situation.-We are all angry. We don't want to pick up someone else's mess. Everyone is mad at irresponsible lenders. Some people are mad at irresponsible borrowers. Everyone is mad at some group or other in the government for not heading this off earlier.
-There is plenty of blame to be apportioned in Washington. Deregulation may have been a watchword for the GOP, but the process was bipartisan. Only die-hard partisans will claim that their party lacks responsibility.
We're all scared, confused, and in a hurry to get people we're angry with to enact a plan we won't like that will help people we wish could be put into stocks (of the pillory variety, not the investment sort). To an extent we all seem to agree.
-The news has had trouble keeping up with the specifics so that even if you were wonky enough, it would be hard to keep up with competing proposals aside from the general (and pretty murky) questions of oversight, golden parachutes & executive compensation, and help for home owners and judges altering contracts for homeowners and lenders. These sound fairly straightforward on the surface, but the implementation gets fuzzy pretty quickly- and it seems that things need to get done in a hurry, which keeps practically everyone from being able to stay current. I think that yesterday's Morning Edition talked about a lobbyist who was getting e-mail updates about the proposed legislation while being interviewed for the story.
-I feel out of my depth with this issue. I'm sure many others do as well. Even economists seem to have some trouble with the level of complexity involved when it comes to the way that mortgage backed securities were sliced and diced. If I had a mortgage right now (and happily I don't) then it might have been packaged into a set with a whole mess of other mortgages (some good and some bad) and sold to one group, which repackaged it with other sets, and then sold shares to a variety of investment groups all over the world- or at least that's my limited understanding. My favorite layman's explanation of what caused the housing crisis can be found here...
http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1242
It's both informative and entertaining. :)
What made me think of it was a quote (which unfortunately I cannot now find) from a Treasury source yesterday who said there was no real formula in coming up with 700 billion...they just wanted it to be a "really big number."
There's a kind of genius to it.
The following is going around the internet. I don't know much about economics, so I ask the LR&C panel and anyone else who might know, is this "We Deserve It Dividend" an economic hoax or a viable option (...I hope the latter!)? thanks, Victor
From: glaciergroup@cox.net
To: glaciergroup@cox.net
Subject: How to spend $85,000,000,000,000 - A pretty good Idea
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 09:02:04 -0700
I'm against the $85,000,000,000.00 bailout of AIG. Instead, I'm in favor of giving $85,000,000,000 to America in a We Deserve It Dividend.
To make the math simple, let's assume there are 200,000,000 bonafide adults in the U.S.
Our population is about 301,000,000 +/- counting every man, woman and child. So 200,000,000 might be a fair stab at adults 18 and up..
So divide 200 million adults 18+ into $85 billon that equals $425,000.00.
My plan is to give $425,000 to every person 18+ as a
We Deserve It Dividend.
Of course, it would NOT be tax free. So let's assume a tax rate of 30%. Every individual 18+ has to pay $127,500.00 in taxes. That sends $25,500,000,000 right back to Uncle Sam. But it means that every adult 18+ has $297,500.00 in their pocket. A husband and wife has $595,000.00.
What would you do with $297,500.00 to $595,000.00 in your family?
Pay off your mortgage - housing crisis solved.
Repay college loans - what a great boost to new grads
Put away money for college - it'll be there
Save in a bank - create money to loan to entrepreneurs.
Buy a new car - create jobs
Invest in the market - capital drives growth
Pay for your parent's medical insurance - health care improves
Enable Deadbeat Dads to come clean - or else
Remember this is for every adult U S Citizen 18+ including the folks who lost their jobs at Lehman Brothers and every other company that is cutting back. And of course, for those serving in our Armed Forces.
If we're going to re-distribute wealth let's really do it...instead of trickling out a puny $1000.00 ( "vote buy" ) economic incentive.
If we're going to do an $85 billion bailout, let's bail out every adult U S Citizen 18+!
As for AIG - liquidate it. Sell off its parts. Let American General go back to being American General. Sell off the real estate. Let the private sector bargain hunters cut it up and clean it up.
Here's my rationale. We deserve it and AIG doesn't.
Sure it's a crazy idea that can "never work." But can you imagine the Coast-To-Coast Block Party! How do you spell Economic Boom?
I trust my fellow adult Americans to know how to use the $85 Billion
We Deserve It Dividend more than I do the geniuses at AIG or in Washington DC.
And remember, The Birk plan only really costs $59.5 Billion because $25.5
Billion is returned instantly in taxes to Uncle Sam.
By the way, 200,000 includes the illegals who just by being here politicians of both parties seem to agree that they have the same rights as LEGAL citizens.
Lastly, and you can do the math on this - how about giving us the $700 BILLION to $1 TRILLION they are talking about?
It is only seem viable for people who are bad at math.
Right then- I'm a bit reticent to address it, but on to the third reason:
Barry Dalton has hit upon a new and rather obnoxious tactic which has been more successful than his past attempts to annoy people who won't vote the way that he wants- and I haven't been watching the board that much as a result.
Tiresome behavior shouldn't be rewarded, but what can one do?
First of all, he has adopted one of the talking points of the Obama supporters- namely that McCain and Palin and their campaign (and by extension those who advocate for them!!!) are liars...
This is hardly a new meme (just read a Franken book), and it completely ignores that it is a tactic that both sides have been using. Anyway, Mr. Dalton has posted a laundry list of alleged lies and seems to believe that anything left unchallenged is an indictment (or that taken as a whole they are a bill of particulars).
This effectively amounts to hijacking the forum. Last weeks topic was the economy. It was not 'Lies- and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them.' If the discussion strikes on an issue that is considered to be a lie (by either candidate) in an organic manner- then obviously that is fair game, but to just come up with a list appropos of nothing and stick it up here is not appropriate.
The only fair way to deal with that would be to dispute every alleged lie that seemed unfair, and post a list of lies from the other candidate for the sake of balance. (Mr. X showed that this would be easy to do.) The result would be like an arms race of claims and counter-claims and draw everyone into a time consuming mire. Is this what anyone here wants?
The fact that we are using VOX means that we all already have our own blogs. It would be perfectly legitimate for Mr. Dalton to put anything whatsoever on his own blog and direct people here to go look at it. This would keep LRC on track and let him vent his spleen as he saw fit.
I have come to believe that Mr. Dalton believes that not only are the candidates opponents- but those who support them are too. He is obviously frustrated by many things in this campaign, and he seems to think that that gives him license to take out his frustrations on those who support the other candidate. This sort animus makes me depressed and tired. It's symptomatic of 'Hannity and Colmes' rather than LRC or the 'This Week' roundtable (or my favorite: 'Shields and Brooks').
Mr. Dalton uses all sorts of ad hominem arguments (people who don't want to vote the way that he'd prefer are 'liars' or 'stupid' or 'flacks', etc.). It can be difficult to try to maintain decorum and civility under these circumstances, and I think that that is by design. He seems to have viewed it as a personal victory that I said I haven't spent as much time here this past week as I might have done. If making the experience more unpleasant for others is one's goal, then I think that you need a different motivation.
____________________________________________________________
<<Dalton>>
Right then- I'm a bit reticent to address it, but on to the third reason:
Barry Dalton has hit upon a new and rather obnoxious tactic which has been more successful than his past attempts to annoy people who won't vote the way that he wants- and I haven't been watching the board that much as a result.
Tiresome behavior shouldn't be rewarded, but what can one do?
First of all, he has adopted one of the talking points of the Obama supporters- namely that McCain and Palin and their campaign (and by extension those who advocate for them!!!) are liars...
This is hardly a new meme (just read a Franken book), and it completely ignores that it is a tactic that both sides have been using. Anyway, Mr. Dalton has posted a laundry list of alleged lies and seems to believe that anything left unchallenged is an indictment (or that taken as a whole they are a bill of particulars).
This effectively amounts to hijacking the forum. Last weeks topic was the economy. It was not 'Lies- and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them.' If the discussion strikes on an issue that is considered to be a lie (by either candidate) in an organic manner- then obviously that is fair game, but to just come up with a list appropos of nothing and stick it up here is not appropriate.
The only fair way to deal with that would be to dispute every alleged lie that seemed unfair, and post a list of lies from the other candidate for the sake of balance. (Mr. X showed that this would be easy to do.) The result would be like an arms race of claims and counter-claims and draw everyone into a time consuming mire. Is this what anyone here wants?
The fact that we are using VOX means that we all already have our own blogs. It would be perfectly legitimate for Mr. Dalton to put anything whatsoever on his own blog and direct people here to go look at it. This would keep LRC on track and let him vent his spleen as he saw fit.
I have come to believe that Mr. Dalton believes that not only are the candidates opponents- but those who support them are too. He is obviously frustrated by many things in this campaign, and he seems to think that that gives him license to take out his frustrations on those who support the other candidate. This sort animus makes me depressed and tired. It's symptomatic of 'Hannity and Colmes' rather than LRC or the 'This Week' roundtable (or my favorite: 'Shields and Brooks').
Mr. Dalton uses all sorts of ad hominem arguments (people who don't want to vote the way that he'd prefer are 'liars' or 'stupid' or 'flacks', etc.). It can be difficult to try to maintain decorum and civility under these circumstances, and I think that that is by design. He seems to have viewed it as a personal victory that I said I haven't spent as much time here this past week as I might have done. If making the experience more unpleasant for others is one's goal, then I think that you need a different motivation.
If it is your contention that my choice of words wasn't merited by the situation, then I would ask you to explain why Barry Dalton's saying,
Technically, he did not call me dumb, but technically I did not call him a git. I don't see how my remark is any worse.
Sarah said:
Since Barry Dalton is the most prolific poster here (about a third of the posts on this thread are his) then it is reasonable to infer that she was referring to him. He has called me a liar and dumb, put words in my mouth, called other people who don't agree with him dumb, and essentially acted like a git.
I have pretty much given up responding to him and I wonder if the sharp decline in posts in the last couple of threads has anything to do with his petty slurs and complete dismissive attitude toward dissent.
Attention: If your fake name is not 'okraz', 'mr. x' or "Rightguy"...you have no right to post here. In their mind this is the Sergeant Shultz forum..."i see nothing, i hear nothing..." Even though all of the McCain lies I have posted are clearly on the record, they still want gullible people to believe they are "alleged lies."
And then they spend a lot of time dumping as many long posts as they can on top of anything that they're afraid of. They're now trying to make the issue about "Barry Dalton", specifically because they're afraid of two posts I've made:
1. I speculated that Roger Ailes is the author of the rightwing Talking Points that all CONservative posts use.
2. I outed John McCain's use of fake letters to the editors (and by extension the possibility that the anonymous conservatives on this blog are not who they pretend to be).
"How ghost-writing letters to the editor for McCain works"
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/09/24/mccain_letters/
We don't even know if X, Ockraz and Rightguy are really Americans.
So, please John McCain..."make Barry Dalton famous" for standing up to rightwing lies.
"3. If the reason for the present plan is that not doing it would cause some sort of systemic damage to the economy, then what would the justification be for helping homeowners who overextended themselves? If the government buys up the 'toxic' loans, then doesn't that take the homes in danger of foreclosure out of the system which would be affected? Apparently rescuing lenders is a neccesary evil, but why is rescuing the homeowners?"
Why is it necessary to rescue homeowners who are stuck with bad loans because they trusted the experts, assumed there was a cop on the beat, could not understand complex documents that are only understood by insiders, did not appreciate the effects that fluctuations in the London Interbank Offering Rate would have on their personal finances, and perhaps suffered from the bias toward optimism that most of us share? Throwing families out of their homes and having them be vandalized and vacant and creating a lowball market in homes is a good thing, right? Or at least saving them is a not necessary evil like saving Wall Street.
Wrong, because the strength of America is not just its financial institutions but its people.Not just humane society but also the economy depends on them and exists ultimately to serve them. They may have less concentrated economic power and less ability to contribute to political campaigns but they are still what makes it all work. Maybe people aren't up on all the marketing research that taught the industry how to get into peoples' pockets. Maybe they weren't as smart as the smartest guys in the room who figured out how to reenact the market crash of 1929. Maybe they have learned to trust the capitalist system more than the law protects. Maybe they decided to go for it like the advertisements are always telling us to. But why should they (we) be hammered for it.
There is not much solidarity among ordinary people these days, and there is a lot of blaming the victim. "What about an adjustable rate mortgage didn't you understand?" But can someone survive if their mortgage can adjust to any amount. What sort of experience can people have with payment option arms or rates that adjust based on some unheard of index. We need a society that people can live in without putting their homes and retirements at risk of total loss. If someone bets the farm at a casino we say they have a gambling problem. But if the local mortgage lender turns out to be a casino, people don't know what they are getting into. And the complex maze of derivatives, collateralized debt obligations and short sales and credit swaps are little more than gambling. They are not productive investments that grow economies, produce jobs and transmit wealth. They are a Ponzi scheme, magnifying wealth that does not exist until it collapses. Risk is great to free market ideologues but too much risk is destructive as well. This is why finance needs to be regulated.
He seems to have appointed you (RIGHTGUY), me, and Mr. X as the defenders against any charge whatsoever that he can come up with against McCain. I still don't see any evidence that he wants the reciprocal responsibility himself (apparently believing that a good offense means you need no defense- ironic considering what he has to say about foreign policy).
Furthermore, if he were not behaving in this manner, then I would not even be considering the idea of competing by combing through a candidates public statements to produce some sort of list-battle. (Who really cares about minutiae like football teams or who paid for a car?!) In fact, if I were given to make a counter-list, it would probably be of Obama's waffling on issues of
substance.
I still don't see why (if he just wants to rail against McCain regardless of the LRC topic) he doesn't use the VOX set up to blog himself. If I wanted to rail against Obama about something that wasn't brought up by LRC or a prior comment, then I'd do it on a blog of my own.
Actually, I do know why he doesn't do that- no one would read his blog.
What kind of McCain campaign ghost-writer would have admitted to preferring Obama's economic agenda? (or voting for Gore and Kerry - or being an atheist/bright for that matter?!)
You are really are topping yourself when it comes to nincompoopery!
[Your escalating nonsense is causing me to use more obscure language to substitute for the less polite words that I might use in another forum (hence- nincompoopery).]
Of course we use usernames- that's what everyone does! If you have chosen to use your given name and surname- well you bucked the trend. Are you hoping for a cookie?
McCains 36 Biggest Self-Serving Lies
Evidence-Based McCain lies:
#36: In January 2008, National Review Online asked McCain about a John Fund report that he felt Alito was too conservative. They also asked him why he hasn't supported conservative judicial nominees such as Pentagon chief counsel W. James Haynes. McCain replied: "The ones who were left aside, I continued to fight for. We just ran out of time and lost an election."I have done nothing but support these people."
Truth: McCain did the right thing in actively working against Haynes because of the torture issue, but to turn around and lie because you're talking to a conservative publication can rightly be called a self-serving lies.
Why don't just use your real name, Ockraz? What are you afraid of? What are you hiding? Are you afraid you CONservative friends will catch you telling the truth, like when you said you trust Obama more than McCain on the economy? Or are you worried someone will catch you in a lie?
Come out from under that rock. It's warm out here.
If you want to be disrespectful, contemptuous, and set up shop around any topic you want regardless of what others are discussing, then...
Get your own blog.
Here's a doozy by McCain on the most recent 60-minutes on location at one of his 7 mansions:
"I hike across that creek and go right across there very easily and hike up onto that mountain, and on top of that mountain there, and it's kind of a hard hike because there's no trail."
This is definitely a self-serving attempt to re-make his image, but it forced me to change the name of my lie-list from "McCain Whoppers" back to "McCain Self-Serving Lies."
Although laughably boastful, I can't include it on my list because it's basically a "big fish" story that's impossible to prove untrue.
Reminds me of Putin's story that he "killed a tiger" to protect the innocent bystanders a few months ago.
Why are you talking about creeks and mountain trails?
Have you lost your senses?
Perhaps Barry Dalton is an alias.
Perhaps you are a secret fifth column agent sent by Dick Morris to keep anyone but liberal Democrats from participating in this blog by annoying everyone else with your blather.
Quick Barry- prove you are genuine:
what is your home address
your phone number
your social security number
your mother's maiden name
Criminy!
Regardless (at least up until a week or two ago) there are (or were) important issues that are not economic.
Obama never said any of the things you just accused him of.
He said that a president should be able to handle one major issue at a time.
Which is true.
Sorry, I meant to say:
He said that a president should be able to handle MORE THAN one major issue at a time.
It's not quite like the S&L crisis, but it's just as disconcerting in my book (especially since it will cost five times as much as the S&L bailout).
It doesn't matter how many debates McCain "invited" Obama to. The candidate with the most to gain is usually the one who most wants to debate, so they jockey for position.
That's why there's an independent debate commission to mediate between the tough negotiators on each side.
And then, it's called a CONTRACT. or a TREATY. or a AGREEMENT. or, if you want, a DUEL, or a DEBATE. A debate is an opportunity for two sides to discuss issues in front of the lower classes so we can decide who would make the best president.
A president can't just walk away from an agreement he made, that will cost the host institution millions of dollars.
It's another desparate gamble by McCain, shrouded in phony patriotism and false alarm. And this is exactly the same way he would govern. ALWAYS a new crisis, and a desparate, over-dramatic John McCain "solution" out of Right Field.
If McCain hadn't insisted on injecting himself and politics in the middle of serious negotiations, maybe there'd be an agreement by now.
Whether McCain shows up or not for the debate, it will be quite historic. I for one am hoping he doesn't show up. Until the end of time, the clips will be shown of Obama on one side and an empty podium on the other.
Even if McCain is able to spin such an event to his advantage, history will always show that brilliant juxtaposition.
Thom Hartmann has the solution to Wall Street mess (CommonDreams, How Wall Street can Bail Itself Out Withou Destroying The Dollar, 9.26). Set up an agency to administer a STET tax on every Wall Street transaction, have treasury loan the agency money to get started, and away we go. The bailout will not work.
Which kind of woman do you want to be?
Do u have these ten secret weapons?
IT bag: yves saint laurent,christian louboutin for spring,louis vuitton handbags for Summer,loewe handbags for autumn,Coach handbags or other replica handbags for Winter.
You have to wear the christian louboutin when you go to parties.When you are on a journey,you should wear a pair of jimmy choo shoes.Nike is very nessisary when you donging sports.You should buy the ugg boots(UGG Classic Short or UGG Classic Tall) for your watery foots.
gucci bags on sale gucci handbags on sale fendi zucca bag fendi wallets fendi spy replica spring coach bags dolce & gabbana handbags dg handbags dolce handbag hermes handbag discount designer handbags hermes kelly handbag replica chloe handbags loewe handbag miu miu leather bag jimmy choo handbags lancel handbag discount burberry handbags burberry handbag marc jacobs handbags sale marc jacobs stam bag marc jacobs quilted bag handbags by marc jacobs marc jacobs hobo marc jacobs satchel thomas wylde bag thomas bag mulberry handbags valentino purse valentino bag versace purses versace handbag cartier bag cartier wallets givenchy bag handbag luxury bottega veneta handbags bottega handbags dior gaucho handbags christian dior handbag christian handbags balenciaga handbags balenciaga motorcycle bag christian dior handbags louis vuitton wallets louis vuitton purses louis vuitton monogram louis vuitton multicolor louis vuitton monogram canvas louis vuitton alma louis vuitton vernis ysl handbags cheap Ugg BootsReplica Watches replica ugg bootschristian louboutin shoes Women Jeans