KCRW'S Left Right & Center: Links for Pre-show Reading
MODERATOR'S NOTE: I AGREE WITH MR. X BELOW: THIS FORUM IS FOR DISCUSSION. IF YOU WANT TO PROVIDE LINKS TO OTHER SITES, YOU ARE WELCOME TO DO SO, DON'T SCHLEP ALL THAT TEXT INTO THIS BLOG. LET'S KEEP THE POSTS READABLE AND ON POINT -- LET'S NOT FALL INTO ATTACKS, NAME-CALLING AND OTHER DISTRACTIONS. FOCUS ON ISSUES, THINK FOR YOURSELVES, DON'T TELL OTHERS WHAT THEY ARE THINKING! AND FOR THOSE WHO POST EXCESSIVELY: YOU MAY END UP SUCKING ALL THE AIR OUT OF THE ROOM AND DISCOURAGING OTHERS TO ENGAGE IN CIVIL DISCUSSION. PLEASE MODERATE YOURSELVES AS WELL. COME ON -- I AM SUPPOSED TO BE ON VACATION! DON'T MAKE ME HAVE TO BABYSIT AND YELL TOO. (THANKS--SARAH)
Financial Times
"How to meet the dangers facing Britain" By Martin Wolf
Modern history’s greatest regulatory failure
By Roger Altman
America will need a $1,000bn bail-out
By Kenneth Rogoff
This greed was beyond irresponsible
By John Gapper
Wall Street Journal Op-Eds
Loosen Deposit Insurance Rules To Prevent A Bank Run
By Lawrence B. Lindsey
Resurrect the Resolution Trust Corp.
By Nicholas F. Brady, Eugene A. Ludwig & Paul A. Volcker
We Need Better-Capitalized Institutions
By Steven Rattner
My Groups
-
the KCRW Music Library Updated: 2 days ago
-
Music News from KCRW.com Updated: 2 days ago
-
The Global Gig Guide on KCRW Updated: 4 days ago
Neighborhood
Explore friends, family, friends & family, or entire neighborhood.
Comments
I'm not so vain to want or expect anyone to listen to my wishes, but here goes anyway:
Barry Dalton's LR&C Wish List:
--I hope this week's show isn't entirely about the Economy.
--And if it is, I hope it's segmented to keep topics from running together to much.
--I hope the Charlie Gibson is old news and not worth a mention.
--I hope all 4 guests are in studio--last week The View made RL&C sound like a gaggle of airheads.
--I hope I don't have to hear Tony say something that I must then hear repeated by every other rightwing pundit, using the same phrasing.
--I hope this episode, Tony keeps it lie free.
--I hope Matt Miller just be's himself--but much less defensive.
--But my biggest wish is that the focus is on the one, most important aspect of this election: McCain's credibility on the economy.
1. Bob's tendency to try to use more than his allotted time be reigned in by Matt
2. Bob an Arianna not be on the same episode- they have essentially the same POV and unbalance the show
3. An ally be given to Tony, to counteract the Bob-Arianna alliance
Palins Mayor experience consisted of:
1. Firing the museum director because a money contributor of hers didn't like him.
2. Trying to fire the librarian for not responding "like a trooper" to the mayor's inquiries about book burning.
3. Hiring a city manager to do her work for her (after saying before the election she wouldn't)
4. Encouraging the socialist policy of the lower 49 states giving welfare to Alaska via the highest per capita earmark requests in U.S. history...was it $27 million for a town of 6000 or something like that?
5. Continuing a puritan whispering campaign that got her elected.
6. Letting her husband do all of her "dirty work"
7. Dreaming about how, when elected governor, she would by a $35,000 tanning bed for the Governor's mansion.
8. And most important, keeping a constant vigil on Russia..."one-eth by day, two-est by night..."
I think we can all agree that Sean Hannity showed how it's done. His tone was perfect, his demeanor spot on, and most important his questions were completely respectful.
Take a look folks. THAT's how you hit it out of the park.
I actually agree with your wishes, at least to an extent.
The problem is one Rightwing Spinner mathematically equals 3 Progressive Intellectuals. It literally takes 3 people to counter a Rightwinger, because they toss out so many mistruths, so persistently and so intensely.
If they were fish, the Rightwinger would be a shark and the Progressives woult be Sea Lions. This ain't Finding Nemo, my friends. The shark almost always wins.
Pull up a chair, son. Let me throw another animal analogy at you:
Rightwingers are like a heard of moose. If you want to be the top moose, you bang your horns against the head of another moose. The winner is in charge, and the other moose are expected to "eat grass." If a moose steps out of line (Fiorini, for example), they are pushed off a cliff.
On the other hand, progressives are more like a pack of tigers. If there's an elephant they all jump on it, they don't go at in one-on-one. It's lies are just too big and too resonant with citizens who very trusting. And, although there is one dominant male, there is constant bickering going on between the other tigers in the group.
So, while the three progressives on LR&C argue with each other over details, Tony sits and giggles and plays divide and conquer games. He isn't faced with thinking on his feet. He's got the talking points stuck in his trunk.
If anything, the podcast needs a REAL moderate, a blue-collar guy or gal, who doesn't fall victim to the intelectualizing on the left and the spinning on the right.
It's amazing what trivia hundreds of investigators sent by antagonistic news agencies and Obama's campaign can dig up and how his desperate supporters gulp it down like the Kool Aid it is.
At least Palin can see Russia from her state, all that Obama sees is Lake Michigan. No matter how you spin it, one has no better foreign experience that the other.
The problem with earmarks is not the federal money that goes to building the infrastructure of small towns and states, it's the lack of scrutiny when they pass through the congress. The reform McCain/Palin propose is not to do away with the federal subsidies it is to place them under scrutiny instead of having them tacked onto another bill as a favor to someone else. Those favors occur at the federal level between senators and representatives.
In the case of Obama, he has 1 billion dollars of earmark favors after only two years. You just have to wonder what he owes to whom. Not to mention the half-billion dollars in campaign funds favors he'll have to return to big business if he's elected (yeah, there's a lot of little donors, but more than 60% of his campaign funds come from the usual large donors such as trial attorneys, Lehman Brothers, Fannie/Freddie, etc). The problem with Obama's funds is they come covertly, instead of up front through...lobbyists. What? Argue for lobbyists? At least lobbyists are supposed to work under the scrutiny of people. The bundlers Obama uses for the majority of his campaign funds work covertly without any oversite.
What's wrong with someone buying their own tanning bed? Especially if they live where there is very little sun in the winter time and it is critical to get light exposure to maintain circadian rhythm and to get Vitamin D.
Gee, with an 80% approval rating for governor, you'd think that 80% of the stuff coming from those investigators would be positive instead of negative.
Alert folks: Sharks keep coming. They never stop. They never rest. Lies work, and these Rightwingers will keep telling them, over and over and over again.
Just when you think you've shot down the last lie. Just when you think they won't dare tell another WHOPPER. Here they come. They see you fat white belly. They see your feet flailing in the water, trying to stay afloat in these dangerous economic waters.
And soon they will wear us down. They will wear the media down. We won't be able to lift our arms to punch them in their nose again.
And they will be left unchallenged as "old news."
Their cold, heartless eyes "will not blink", they "can not blink."
Just hope, pray to Jesus, they will swallow you whole, and not tear you apart with their big, ferocious mouths.
You're going down. Bank on it.
Now I am sure that she is much less of a hayseed than she pretends to be, but once the republicans invoke God, 40+% or the US believes it. Even if the Republican party had some qualms about doing this, not doing so is seen as professional malpractice by the PR strategists. Tony Blankley seems to have made his good humoured peace with this. (If he did not think it was to his benefit, he would not have such high regard for Sarah Palin, Rupert Murdock or that reincarnated deity, Sun Myung Moon, owner of the Washington Times) Robert Sheer takes Tony at face value, and flies off the handle. Tony probably doesn't take it seriously. Why make a scene?
Tony is just doing what it takes to win, and cannot discuss this openly. His assignment is to convince the gullible 40+% of the voters to do whatever the corporate sponsors of the Republican party want to do, even if it means telling them that God wants the tax burden shifted from corporations to laborers, then have their jobs moved to China because the tax burden makes them too expensive. (The fortune 500 execs would not be so rich had God not willed it so. Besides, they got rich by working real hard.) Hell, corporate campaign donations pay for the team, so they call the shots.
I am sure Tony was never really serious on privatized Social Security, nor wants to hand the cloture "Nuclear Option" to Obama. (I would be happily surprised to get a reply to this.)
Worse, (or better, depending on which side you are on) is the political correctness required not to piss off the small town good real people. If we think they are gullible buyers of various religious dogmas, we are insulting them. If we take them seriously when they tell us that we deserve to burn in hell if we don't outlaw gay marriage, we are being hateful and paranoid. The liberal urban educated middle class tax base has to just shut up and pretend to go along. The solidly republican and conservative South shows how effective this conundrum is. Either we (liberals) pretend to respect those who believe we belong in boiling sulfur, or we lose any chance of a winning coalition. In the meantime, you can laugh at our political correctness, as we try not to piss off too many "God Fearing" types. Tony, how do you do this? do you believe they are in touch with God, and we all deserve to burn, but are too curteous to tell us? Do you smile inwardly when they tell you you may belong in hell? Or as a member of the corporate wing of the alliance, they accept the tacit understanding that corporate hypocrisy is OK so long as they get political support while bashing gays?
How do you do this Tony? I know you are too smart to take the Christian right seriously. Do they give you a free pass for your services, or what? It has to be something like this. Otherwise they would be attacking Sun Myung Moon for misleading people into apostasy, which the bible finds than being gay. How does this work out? Is there a secret handshake?
I am not a player. I live here, pay the my my taxes and my share of Exxons, and try to treat others well. I actually do understand game theory, but "We don't make the rules, we only play the game" of the political strategists depresses the hell out of me.
I see the Republicans as the worst offenders, the Democrats are rank Amateurs. (Tony said as much with his "Make My Day".) When you are paid by a small rich elite to get the votes of God fearing Wallmart clerks in Kansasto give you their votes while they take the tax burden, you have to play a good game, and leaving religious credulity unexploited is a sure loser. That's what the Republican pundit/strategists have to do. Its a great job: I'm an engineer competing with Indians whose wages are less than my (and my share of Exxons and McDonalds) tax bill. A pundit does not even need to know algebra and calculus to know privatizing social security will work out just fine.
Tony? You are a smart guy. Make my day. How do you do this?
I'm not so concerned about the Christian Right--they're entitled to their beliefs and McCain is the correct candidate for them. Those born into wealth also have the right candidate in McCain. I just don't care for the "means" they use to get elected, i.e. lies.
I'm more worried about the mainstream Christians and Middle Class who fall for their lies.
Folksiness wins, and believe it or not is not the difficult to simulate if you have no conscious.
Pull up a chair, son. Let me throw another animal analogy at you:
Thank you for giving me the opportunity that rightwingers are just as apt to "intellectualize" as liberals are.
Speaking of intellectualizing: Listen to this.
The infamous author of "The Book of Virtues "Bob Bennet, a neoconservative intellectual and moralist who has lost million of dollars gambling...and who like Rush Limbaugh can't live up to his own judgemental preaching...actually went on Good Morning America and railed against intellectuals.
Who was the intellectual he railed against? George Will.
What was George Will's crime? Not staying on the message, i.e. the talking point that Sarah Palin's and John McCain's lies are petty and not important enough to even mention.
How do those bus tires feel Fiorini...Will...SEC chairman...who's next?
The STRAIGHT TALK EXPRESS really means, it runs over anybody who tells the truth, even one ONE issue.
You must have a 100-percent Talking point record...not 99%--one hundred percent Carl Rove loyalty required.
Go McCain, you're truly an inspiration.
In conservative world, 95% voting record supporting George Bush gets you the title "maverick."
Mixing metaphors is what I do. It's what I do.
A. Huffington could make LR&C a long 30 minutes tomorrow if you're a progressive. I just read her column on her website a minute ago and she's totally bought into the rightwing attacks against Obama as a "maverick."
All because he hasn't "stood up against his party."
Never mind that his party has been right on most of the major issues over the past 14 years. And, evidenced by their failure, the Bush rightwing republicans have been mostly wrong.
So, to sum up, McCain gets credit for siding with Democrats. But Obama gets criticized for not siding with Republicans.
Never mind that Republicans have controlled the Congress for 12 of the past 14 years. I never heard of politicians in the minority being required to stand up against themselves even though their opposition is in power and is working against the middle class.
Never mind that Republicans have controled the White House the past 8 years and everything's going to Heck in a handbasket.
Never mind that it's McCain that keeps claiming to be a maverick. A maverick because he's not gone along with Bush a whopping 5% of the time. He gets credit for putting country before self 5% of the time over the past 14 years.
All Obama has claimed is that he's NOT George Bush. And that he's not going to say things to sound like George Bush. He's not going to accept republican lies anymore. The result? Obama gets criticized because he put country before self 95% of the time.
I won't go after A. Huffington like I did Matt Miller. I have too much respect for her. But it's very easy to fall into the intellectualizing trap.
Alert folks: Sharks keep coming. They never stop. They never rest. Lies work, and these Rightwingers will keep telling them, over and over and over again.
Just when you think you've shot down the last lie. Just when you think they won't dare tell another WHOPPER. Here they come. They see your fat white belly. They see your feet flailing in the water, trying to stay afloat in these dangerous economic waters.
And soon they will wear us down. They will wear the media down. We won't be able to lift our arms to punch them in their nose again.
And they will be left unchallenged as "old news."
Their cold, heartless eyes "will not blink", they "can not blink."
Just hope, pray to Jesus, they will swallow you whole, and not tear you apart with their big, ferocious mouths.
You're going down. Bank on it.
I'M GLAD OBAMA VOTED AGAINST BUSH 97% of the TIME!
and you should be too
McCain lies:
1. Claims Obama will raise taxes on middle class.
2. Claims Obama wants to teach 5 years how to have sex.
3. Staff claims he invented the Blackberry.
4. Says Obama called Palin a pig.
5. Now says he will regulate insurance companies and banks.
6. Changed his war story about telling Vietnamese guards his fellow soldiers were Greenbay Packs to Pittsburg Steelers--he was just coincidentally campaigning in Pittsburg at the time of the lie.
7. Claims he's a maverick (voted with Bush 95%)
8. Insists Palin stopped the Bridge to Nowhere (she took the money, still trying to build bridge)
9. Says Palin is the most knowledgeable person in the country on Energy.
10. Claims Palin is in charge of "nearly 20 percent of the U.S. domestic supply of oil and gas."
11. Claims he is anti-Lobbyist (59 of top lobbyists on his campaign staff)
12. Claims he "knows how to capture Bin Laden" but won't tell us unless we elect him president first
13. Claimed on Meet the Press he never said he didn't know much about the economy (late Tim Russert showed him 3 clips)
14. Claims Palin will help end "cronyism" (she appointed many top staff who just happened to be members of her graduating high school class)
15. Says he's not running for president (like Obama) for himself, but for the country
16. broke rules while helping Lowell “Bud” Paxson, a major contributor to his 2000 presidential campaign, buy a Pittsburg tv station, and then denied it.
17. Censured in Keating 5 but now braggs one of the investigators recommended he be dropped "because he did nothing wrong." (it's just a coincident that the investigator recommended the same thing for fellow hero/celebriy John Glenn)
18. Campaigned on the record against new GI Bill, now takes complete credit for it (and Bush gave him complete credit as well).
19. McCain/Feingold bill helped get him maverick label, then he turned against it.
20. Said it was immoral to have Bush Tax Cut for wealthy during a war, now says it is patriotic.
21. Cosponsored Alien Miners Act and then said he'd vote against it.
22. On CNN he said, "I think that gay marriage should be allowed." After commercial break said "I do not believe that gay marriages should be legal."
23. On CNN he claimed that General Patreus drives around Bagdad in an unguarded SUV, and the General said that wasn't true.
24. On CNN he said he personally walked around Bagdad without an armored vest, meanwhile video shows he was clearly wearing one.
25. In 1999, made public comments supporting Roe v Wade (in private he wrote letter to National Right to Life Committee assuring them he was really against it.
26. Claims to support Nuclear energy but fights against nuclear waste passing through Arizona.
27. Said we should negotiate with North Korea, but once Bush did it he agreed with it
28. Says he has never been for privatizing Social Security, when in 2004 he clearly did support it. "didn‘t see how benefits will last without it".
29. Campaigned in Florida this year to save Everglades, but never mentioned that he voted against it and support Bush's veto.
30. On June 4, 2008, he said: "I’ve supported every investigation and ways of finding out what caused the tragedy" in New Orleans. But in 2005/2006 he voted against a study of the government’s response to Katrina. He also opposed three separate emergency funding measures providing relief to Katrina victims.
31. Takes credit for putting Jack Abramoff in jail but had initially tried to protect him.
32. Claims Palin will bring reform, but supports indicted Republican Senator Ted Stevens for reelection.
33. Claims she was quoting Licoln exactly when she was really saying God supported the Iraq War.
34. Claims Palin has foreign policy experience because she lives near Alaska (maintains straight face)
35. Claims Palin made decisions regarding relatively small Alaska National Guard (military says she hadn't)
36. Claims he warned the nation about the looming financial crisis 2 years ago, but he didn't.
37. Says he knows how to fix the economic crisis (not that he has a plan, but he himself "knows" exactly how to fix it.)
38. This is only the beginning of the list, that took me only a few minutes to Google, all of which have credible, original sources that can be checked by any honest person. If we add on the lies Sarah alone has told, and then the thousands of lies told by conservative supporters and pundits, well, eyes glaze over and fingers get numb.
McCain Lie #39 (and counting):
39.
At Fox News GOP forum, McCain said:
But in 2006, worked to get $10 million for an academic center named after the late Supreme Court Justice William Rehnquist.
In 2003, McCain slipped $14.3 million into a defense appropriations bill to
create a buffer zone around Luke Air Force Base in Arizona, which was not requested by President Bush or fully authorized by the Senate Armed Services Committee - two of McCain’s criteria for identifying so-called ‘pork.
40. On the eve of the 2008 Florida primary, McCain claimed that Mitt Romney had advocated a timetable for withdrawal from Iraq (he had not).
McCain Lie #41-#42 (and counting):
41. McCain did two interveiws in 2007 with Charlie Rose. During the first one he said the Korea model for Iraq was “exactly” the right idea. The second interview, just a few months later, he said that the Korea-like presence is not an “analogy” he would use for Iraq.
42. McCain said before the war in Iraq, “We will win this conflict. We will win it easily.” Four years later, McCain said he knew all along that the war in Iraq war was “going to be long and hard and tough.”
McCain Lie #43-45 (and counting):
43. The day after announcing the "fully vetted" Palin as he VP, McCain stated: "You know what I enjoyed the most? She took the luxury jet that was acquired by her predecessor and sold it on eBay -- made a profit."
44. McCain claims his policies aren't just an extension of Bush 43.
45. McCain claims he's received the highest award from every veterans organization. As Think Progress reports:
McCain Lie #46-50 (and counting):
46. McCain
claimed that Factcheck.org, a nonpartisan election-accuracy watchdog, accused Obama of spreading misleading information about Sarah Palin when in truth they attributed it to anonymous e-mails and Web posts.47. McCain misquote an article in the Wall Street Journal, claiming it literally said that the Obama campaign sent a team to Alaska to "dig dirt on Governor Palin." The actual WSJ quote was, "dig into her record and background."
48. McCain says Obama is "against troop funding." However, Obama only voted against one war-funding bill "after Bush vetoed a version that contained a date for withdrawal from Iraq." (Obama voted either for all the others he was present for).
49. McCain implied that CBS's Katie Couric was talking about Palin when she said this about society and the media: "One of the great lessons of that campaign is the continued and accepted role of sexism in American life." She, of course, was talking about Hillary Clinton.
50. McCain railed that Obama snubbed wounded troops in Germany because the press couldn't come with him.
Can someone please ask Tony if he still thinks the Obama Campaign is like a dead frog whose legs are attached to an electrical machine?
All from one place and I will give you the link too!
Of course I would prefer for this forum to stick to making arguments for or against points of view rather than an unreadable cut and paste partisan hate fest. I would think that since KCRW wanted LRC to rise above this kind of "screaming talking heads" type of rhetoric but they seem to be content to let this forum degenerate.
123 Obama took credit for the economic stimulus package passed in Feb 08; BHO's colleagues on Capitol Hill cry BS122 Obama claims Big Oil is ignoring 68 million acres of oil fields they could be drilling; most fields are being worked121 Obama claims never questions his opponent's patriotism; asks of McCain "WHICH country first?": ABC says he's questioning McCain's patriotism
120 Obama claims personal savings rates are lowest since the Great Depression; currently higher than under President Clinton119 Obama claims on this video that he doesn't switch positions; list of 31 flip flops show he's lying118 In the Primaries Obama puffed his resume claiming he was a "Professor"; State Senate bio shows he was not ; he now agrees117 When Obama ran for US Senate his web site claimed "5 years as a community organizer"; he admits it was only 3 years116 Obama's attack ad in Michigan claims McCain doesn't support loan guarantees for auto-industry. McCain DOES support them115 Obama says "if we're STILL in recession when he takes office...etc"; the economy is NOT in recession114 Obama claims he signed up for Selective Service when he graduated from High School; records show he did NOT until he'd been at college 1 year113 Attacking Palin, Obama has the audacity to claim,"Words mean something; you can't just make things up "; BHO makes stuff up112 Biden claims McCain will increase taxes for workers & Obama will only increase taxes on those making $435k: he's lying111 Biden claims Obama drew the Nation's attention to problems at Walter Reed Army Hospital; it was two WaPo reporters that reported the issues to the Nation110 to make Obama seems more American/less exotic, Biden tells Scranton crowd Obama grew up in Kansas; BHO grew up in Hawaii and Indonesia
105 Claimed Hillary would be on anyone's short-list; Hillary wasn't on Obama's short-list104 Obama claims abortion rates have not gone down under the Bush Administration; stats show they have gone down103 Obama dismissed Bomber Bill Ayers as "some guy who lives in the neighborhood";they had a close working relationship102 Obama claims there's no charge to attend his acceptance speech: CBS 4 in Denver proves he's lying; some tickets cost $1000101 Obama used being a first-time-buyer to justify consulting with Rezko before he bought his house; BHO had already purchased a residence100 Obama lies about his support for infanticide; campaign concedes in 03 he opposed a bill stopping the killing of kids born alive after abortions
99 Obama overstates Oil Industry's contributions to McCain; ignores cash the Oil industry gave BHO; Newsweek debunks98 To belittle America,Obama exaggerated the growth in Debt under the current Administration; debunked by WaPo97 Obama claims President George W Bush had not left the country before he became President; WaPo confirms he's lying96 To promote "green", Obama claimed he drove a vehicle that uses ethanol; GM confirmed the model was NOT ethanol-ready95 Obama claims he's taking his family for a week's rest in Hawaii with no campaigning; schedules a rally for first day
94: Obama claims "properly inflating tires" will save as much energy as we could drill offshore; analysis shows not even close93 Obama denies accusing McCain of using race against him; ABC, NYT confirm Obama did accuse McCain of making racial attacks
92 Obama claims he's not being political when he's flip-flopping; timing & direction of major flip-flops show he's lying91: Obama INVENTS a wall between Christians and Jews; deceptively omits the major religious wall is caused by a "fatwah" to kill American Christians and Jews90 Obama claims he made a substantive call for Germany to help in Iraq; Berlin speech transcript proves he's lying 89: Obama admits he underestimated the decline in violence from the Surge; falsely claims McCain made same mistake
87 Obama lied about his father's religious upbringing! half-brother confirms Obama's father was "RAISED Muslim"86 Obama claimed we only made one fundraising trip to Florida during the Primary; Florida papers proved he lied
85 Claims reducing obesity to 80's levels would save Medicaid ONE TRILLION DOLLARS; not even close
77 Obama's "Changing World" ad claims he'll fast-track alternatives to oil to stop us buying from hostile nations; "fast track" is totally misleading76 Obama tells Israeli media that he's a member of the Senate Banking Committee; CNN confirms he's delusional75 Obama claims Lou Dobbs caused hate crimes against Latinos to double; the FBI and CNN confirm Obama is lying
54 To further his own agenda, Obama grossly overstates the number of potential African-American votes in MS, GA, SC53 Promise of $2500 reduction in Healthcare premiums needs billions in Admin cost savings by 2012: not possible52 Obama omits to mention his 3 week trip to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan until it slips out trying to out-do Clinton51 Obama claims McCain wants to wage a lengthy war in Iraq: Video proves Obama's lying50 Obama claimed he never prayed in a mosque; his campaign had to retract that statement49 Obama dishonestly used endorsements in ads to pump up his healthcare plan48 Claims he never discussed politics with Pastor; rebutted by photo of Obama with team of lobbyists led by Wright47 Obama, an expert at parsing words, claimed he wasn't familiar with the word "Clintonian"; then changed his story46 Despite reeking of cigarettes, Obama denied smoking to ABC; now admits smoking on MSNBC45 Obama said he'd meet unconditionally with Leader of Iran: now claims he "didn't have Ahmadinejad in mind"44 Obama claims he is using public financing to avoid special interests: WSJ nails his switcheroo43 Obama's rhetoric claims more young black men in jail than college: BoJ Stats disprove42 Claims he never said he was a proponent of single-payer universal healthcare; Video proves he did41 Obama claims remarks to industrialists were greeted with silence, shows he can deliver tough message: video of ovation40 Obamas claim you dont rip opponents & leave on roadside:he did to Alice Palmer39 Obama denies saying Indiana could be tie-breaker: he did38 Obama omits that Pastor Wright led divestiture campaign from Israel37 Obama claims Church not controversial; he knew it was controversial since 8636 Lied about intention of taking US out of NAFTA35 Obamas claim poverty growing up: both distort reality34 Obama denies meeting Saddam's Auchi; sworn Fed. witness places Obama at undisclosed party for Auchi at Rezkos33 Obama lies about not attacking Clinton over her Bosnia lies32 Obama claims he passed ethics reform; ABC News shows he lied31 Obama says he's consistently opposed NAFTA; in October 2007 he supported expansion to Peru30 Obama claims he's above dirty political tricks; Clinton proves he lies29 Obama claims his "bitter" remarks were mangled; then repeats attacks on guns religion and angry people28 Obama claims never said he wouldn't wear US flag-pin; video shows he did27 Obama says he did no favors for Rezko;untrue; he lobbied for him26 Changes story repeatedly re Rezko's help in buying mansion25 Obama claims he never supported a ban on handguns; he has twice24 Obama claims stays at UCC as Pastor acknowledged comments were inappropriate; Wright never made this statement23 Campaign is beholden to "only the people" as unlike McCain/Clinton he does not take lobbyist /PAC money; LIES!22 Claims campaign never called Canada to say Obama not truthful re wanting leave NAFTA; smoking gun memo proves lied21 Mrs Obama admits she's never been proud of America; Video disproves Sen. Obama's later claim she was misquoted20 Claimed would not run for President, as he would not be qualified by 2008: confirmed 3 times to Tim Russert in one 2006 interview19 Claims famous in Il. for not letting lobbyists even buy him lunch; took from teachers, trial lawyers, hospital admins18 Claims his parents met at Selma civil rights march; Washington Post noted it occurred 4 yrs after Obama's birth17 BO claims courageously opposed war in 2002 during US Senate campaign; He did not announce his senate bid until 200316 Claims he passes tough Nuclear Law; NYT uncovers he took Nuclear Industry pay-off and watered down the bill15 Claimed he didn't know Rezko was corrupt when did a real estate deal with him; Chicago papers prove he lied14 Claims does not accept money from Big Oil: Real Clear Politics proves he lied13 Denies using his Hopefund PAC to influence endorsers; but the Washington Post reviewed the record and disagreed12 Claims his State Chair is not a drug company lobbyist; Time magazine cries Bullshit11 Lies about how much he received in campaign funds from Rezko; forced to significantly increase the amount twice10 Claims he did not fill out the 1996 candidate questionaire; Politico proves he lied9 Took credit for achievement of others in Chicago; resume puffing exposed by LA Times8 Claims he kept no State Senate records; now he changes his story7 Denies doubling wife's salary was due to becoming US Senator; omits within months he earmarked $1 million for hospital6 Denied meeting Saddam bagman Auchi; now admits he was at his dinner but does not remember talking to him5 Denies using his church for politics: IRS disagree4 Claims he was unaware of Pastor Wrights 911 comments: NYT proves he lied3 Claims his father was a goat-herd; actually he was a man of privilige2 Claims not an active muslim as child; Indonesian paper proves he lied1 Claims father linked to Kennedys; Washington Post proves he lied
But...
When investment banks which are leveraged to the tune of up to 30 times their assets, thinking "there won't be a problem as long as prices continue to go up" face bankruptcy, we are told the government must intervene using taxpayer money* so that Market confidence can be restored and that this “will cost Americans far less than the alternative.”
*Taxes naturally paid by said individual who is losing his house.
Anyone?
I realize we're supposed to keep it civil. But how much more has to happen before we demand to see some heads on sticks? Where is the outrage?
We're like a dumb dog that keeps wagging its tail hoping it won't get smacked again.
Corporate money comes in two flavors:
1. Money to elect who you want.
2. Money to buy influence to whomever did get elected.
I think the money you are talking about is mostly type 2 (Granted, the trial lawyer money and some of the entertainment money is probably be type 1), To show the power of type 2, note Obamas vote on immunity for telcos.
As for "Anti Religious" fanaticism, that may have been true in Stalinist Russia and Maoist China, but I see very little damage caused by it in this country.
Your remark concerning democratic sleaze, I agree fully. Cynthia Mckinney and Hillary Clinton demonstrate quite well that where identity politics works, it is used. It is just that it seems to be less effective with the left, so it is used less often.
As for your statement that elections funded by interest groups are the main source of the problem, Megadittos.
As for the left fearing the right undermining their beliefs, I have seen no evidence of that yet. A leftist does not think he goes to hell if he disputes Marxist economic or governance models. (I hope I am right on this one, or I am in deep doodoo...)
Lets add up the relative damage. I agree there is much left damage to go around, but in recent decades I am pretty confident there was more right damage.
1. We are bonobos and chimps in the same tribe
2. The chimps control the banana supply control access access to the banana bushes
3. Maybe in 20th century iron curtain countries those claiming to represent the bonobos took all the bananas from both the chimps and the bonobos, but I don't think it has been a problem. In the post WW2 period, the bonobo dominated period seems to have been accompanied by wider access to bananas.
There is a huge double standard here. Six months ago, the people who bought the real estate they "couldn't afford" could not have their risky behavior rewarded by a government bailout, according to all of these same people who are now advocating today's Bail Ou---er---sorry "Rescue Plan."
Permanent Growth capitalism is not sustainable. This is the machine starting to seize up.
Tony annoys me. He's a true rightwinger in that, only what he says matters. He want's to talk when it's his times, and when others are talking. Look at any cable news program, that's what they do. I am glad made him back off when Matt was talking.
Your list includes:
1. Flip Flops and Alleged Flip Flops.
2. Your list includes so-called "ommissions"
3. Your list includes policy differences.
4. Your list includes rightwing lies about alleged lies.
MY LIST INCLUDES ACTUAL, VERIFIABLE MCCAIN LIES!
With all due respect with the moderator. How can you AGREE with Mr X? He's a total liar. I DID NOT cut and paste from another website. HE DID!
Every time I make a valid point, he and Ockraz and RIGHTGUY, post long-winded garbage to suppress it.
I painstakingly sorted through MANY websites and lists and stripped out the McCAIN Lies. Most of the time, I rewrote anything I cut, to shorten it for length purposes.
I painstakingly eliminated anything that was actually a FLIP-FLOP. Because I don't consider flip-flops as lies. I also tried to take out "ommissions" and anything that could be interpreted as a policy difference rather than a lie.
My point was to remove any ARGUMENTS as to whether an item is a lie or something else.
I may not have been 100-percent successful at that, but it was very close.
To imply that I did something dishonest, when in fact it is anonymous Mr X who is being dishonest, is repugnant.
Did Mr. X refute any of the McCAIN LIES? No, he simply cut and pasted a bunch of crap and made a phony allegation against me.
And you bought it hook line and stinker.
I deserve an apology....holding breath now...
Rightguy challenged me: "Arguing by claiming the other side lies without any foundation is an empty argument and it smells like fish to me."
So, fine, I thought I'd find a quick list of 10 lies on the Internet compiled by our great liberal journalists, and boom, I win.
Nope. There were no quick lists. There were just mixed lists of lies and other things. So I searched youtube and other sites and weeded out the genuine, bold-faced, McCain lies.
I had no idea I'd end up with 50 lies. I'm sorry it was so long.
What was my reward? A rebuke by the moderator.
I'm beginning to believe Matt Miller from a few weeks ago: CONservatives are geniuses.
Blue raven: We are bonobos and chimps in the same tribe
You can start your own analogy if you like, but bonobos and chimps are never in the same troop in nature.
The chimps control the banana supply control access access to the banana bushes
You don't think that there are any wealthy liberals?!
The bonobo dominated period seems to have been accompanied by wider access to bananas.
Some people would probably take issue with that charcterization of liberal leadership leading to greater access to goods, but I won't because I don't belong to either troop, and I think that you are basically correct.
To get back to my analogy:
Bonobos seem not to engage as much in aggressive behavior towards outsiders- which is fine as long as all of the outsiders are friendly. If that is not the case, you might prefer to be a chimp. Bonobos have a tendency to try to resolve internal conflicts with sexual activity. Again, that might make it preferable to be a bonobo if you are engaged in an internal conflict, but if you are confronted with an outside threat, then I don't think that you'd do well.
Chimp society is dominated by the males vying for position and dominance. Bonobo society is dominated by social connections and the strong bonds between females enable them to consistantly have higher social status than the males. Chimpanzees have been known to kill other chimps from different trops. Bonobo's don't seem to kill other bonobos, but the females have been known to mutilate male members of their own troop who challenge the leadership- including chewing off their fingers.
One reason that some people feel that their is less aggression in bonobo society is that they live in relatively limited habitats where food is plentiful enough so that when other troops are encountered, they are not seen as a threat to their livelihood. Chimpanzees are more likely to have to compete for habitat with other chimpanzee troops and their willingness to engage in intertroop violence may be an outgrowth of this competition. On the other hand, the intratroop violence of the bonobos (while rare) seems to be more severe than that of the chimps.Sooo...
the analogoy could be summed up this way-
chimps: more competition for resources, a tendancy to focus on defense, more male oriented with hierachies based on individual advancement
bonobos: more focus on relationships, greater tendency towards a form of diplomacy, more female oriented with hierarchies based on cultivating social bonds
I didn't come up with this idea. It is an odd fact that the bonobo versus chimpanzee advocates are politicized based on what they see as similarities between what primatological studies show and how they picture an ideal human society.
My larger point- getting back to what Barry said- is that if there are two species (which was his analogy) then like the two kinds of chimpanzees, they are hard to distinguish and the claims that one group is superior to the other are predicated on a sympathy to the values espoused by that group. There is no objective way to argue that one is better than the other- only advocacy based on personal bias and a lack of objectivity.
If corporate money is used to elect the person that you favor, then how is that not supposed to influence the person. I don't think that corporate money is given out of altruism.
I really don't wan to get into the whole list thing, because it just makes me tired- but I do want to point out that your list suffers from the same problems you accuse Mr. X's list of having. Look at 3 through 8 for cripes sake! (I don't want to get into a laundry list so I am only going to mention those 5.) The only one that might be considered a lie is the stupid football thing- and should we really care whether he said the wrong team on purpose or got them mixed up?
I don't know what your problem is but I think that you are acting very juvenile Mr. Dalton. You think that Mr. X and Rightguy and I are longwinded, do you? What are you?
Sarah
Save me your phony outrage. I see you have still failed to refute any of the McCain lies. Like Bill Bennet you just want to say their "small lies" and have nothing to do with how honest a president he will be.
#3-4 have been removed.
But Number 2 is a clear lie that he has repeated in ads that he approved and has supported in interviews.
#6 remains - a lie is a lie, regardless of whether you think lieing about your own life is "trivial". Actually it's quite sad
#7 has been removed
#8 is a clear lie, it is not technically accurate that she said "thanks but no thanks"...many objective news sources now agree that Palin wasn't being honest, and McCain still insists EVERYTHING about it is true, and rejects any arguments on "technicalities"
#9 is an exact John McCain quote from an interview with WCSH in Portland, Maine, on September 11, 2008, but he's repeated it in other interviews as well.
See, we can have an intelligent conversation about the truth. That's all I'm asking for.
6- I think is silly and could be an error.
8- True because there is an improved ferry system rather than an expensive and wasteful bridge.
I'll take your word on 9. I hadn't heard that. I don't now about 10.
11- What I've heard him say many times is that he is against the corrupting influence of lobbyists in Washington. You may think that all lobbyists are equally bad, but he seems to think that some are honorable and useful enough to work with. That isn't a lie.
12- He has also said that he knows how to win wars. Is that a lie too? I think that he believes that it is true, which means there is no intent to deceive. If he could win in Afghanistan (and the Pakistan border ), presumably that would lead to capturing Bin Laden.
15. Based on his biography, this is probably either true, or something that he thinks is true.
If I go any further down the list it won't be tonight. I'm in the ET zone and it's late.
"he knows how to win wars"
Yes, that's a lie, too. But's too debatible to put on this list. I'm trying to keep it pure. Of course, sympathizers and supporters of McCain can try to dismiss his lies, but it takes a higher standard than "I think is silly" to get it off the list.
McCain was in Vietnam. That war was not won. McCain supported the Iraq War and it has not been won. I'd hardly call supporting someone else's idea about a military tactic that was your last desperate chance to claim to be right about something is "know how to win wars"...it was more like a gamble that paid off with some political points...at the expense of too many American soldiers...oh, wait, you told me last week that those deaths are "acceptable"
I do not accept that McCain knows how to win wars, but I think that is more fairly a "brag" or a false opinion about one's own abilities.
#15 has been removed