My comment appears to have been cut short, so here goes again:

You briefly touched on this item, but in my view did not explore it sufficiently:

What is the ultimate (stated) goal of each of the parties? Israel - to live in peace with its neighbors. Palestinians - to drive the Israelis into the ocean. One has to recognize their consistency, they have had this ambition, first in the guise of the PLO and now Hamas, unwaveringly since 1948.

Israel has expressed regret every time there have been civilian casaulties as a result of military activity. Palestinians have been targeting civilians since the 1970s (remember the Olympic games in 1974?). They continue to target civilians now with no remorse for the deaths of innocent women and children.

Finally, the claim of a disproportionate response is disingenuous and analogous to a kid stepping onto the playground and picking a fight with the biggest kid there. Upon receiving a beating, the aggresor then cries because he got beaten up. Why did he start the fight to begin with?

Similarly, trivializing just a few Israeli deaths over the last few years due to rocket attacks (as done by one of your panelists) is disgusting. What is the point being made here? Should Israel not react as it is just a few of its people that have been killed?

The end to the deplorable situation in the Gaza Strip and the suffering of the people there must be preceded by the Palestinians renouncement of their "drive them into the Mediterranean" ideology. Until then, Israel must protect its citizens. It is in the Palestinians' hands to improve their lot.

The L and C in LRC are cutting Tony B way to much slack. First he spends the year teling us the market is far more efficient and virtuous than the 'clowns' in Washington could ever be.

A few things to add to the Israel/Palestinian discussion.

On a historical note, Israel was the product of a revolution following British withdrawal where the British left their fortifications in the hands of entities hostile to Jewish settlers. The Jewish population led by people such as David Ben Gurion managed through violent revolution to carve out the initial state of Israel. So their claim to existence is based on theories of revolution similar to those the U.S. is founded on.

Egypt is, to date, the only Muslim nation to recognize Israel’s right to exist, and no Palestinian group that I’m aware of has made the leap. Reportedly, negotiations were only a few weeks away from this milestone with Jordan prior to this latest flare up.

The “Pre-67 borders” that many people try to insist on is a red herring, and a non-starter; Israel will not agree to that; so if that’s the prereq for beginning negotiations, then negotiations will never occur. The pre-67 borders are indefensible for Israel. Take a look at a map. It would be like the U.S. turning over Texas, Colorado, Oklahoma, Kansas, and Nebraska over to a hostile power four times our population and completely dedicated wiping us off the face of the planet. It is a propaganda ploy; a way of implying “see, we’re reasonable, we just want to Israel return to the Pre-67 borders and then we’ll negotiate”, when really what they are saying is, “We don’t want Israel to exist, so before we do anything else - even admit that Israel has a right to exist – let’s have Israel establish an indefensible border.”

As for Hamas being a product of Musad, well every discussion has its conspiracy theorists. In actuality, Hamas is funded almost entirely by Iranian funding. And, Iran is proud of that fact.

It is curious to me, how little attention has been paid to Bush’s foreign policy’s role in the Gaza situation. It was Bush’s blind and passionate (some might say historically retarded) belief that - given free elections - any population – including the Palestinians – would select a reasonable government. Well, Gaza exposes that as a Bush fantasy. And once the Gazans had chosen Hamas as it’s ruling party, Bush seemed completely incompetent in dealing with a situation (hostility between Hamas and Israel) that it should have anticipated and been prepared for.

It is also curious to me that no one has commented on the fact that Israel has overwhelming support in various, influential U.S. circles. Of course, the Jewish community supports Israel, but U.S. fundamentalists Christians also have a deep-rooted support (perhaps bias) for Israel. The re-establishment of a Jewish state figures heavily into fundamentalist Christian theology of “end times”, which many literally build their lives around.

Curious, too, is that no one has examined the fact that Palestinian supporters haven’t called for peace. They’ve only called for the U.S. to stop backing Israel. Well, with the exception of the Liberty incident, Israel has been an unwavering ally of the U.S. since the U.S. recognized Israel in 1948. The history of Arab/Muslim nations as U.S. allies is (at best) spotty. Why would it be in American interests to abandon our most stalwart (and capable) regional ally in favor of such uncertain allies?

In the end, though, here’s what I believe to be the fundamental truth of the situation. Jews and Arabs began their blood feud based on the blessing of Abraham (there’s debate as to exactly how many thousands of years ago that was). Arabs believe that Ishmael (the progenitor of the Arab race) was robbed of his birthright by Isaac (the progenitor of the Jewish race); Jews believe differently. The idea that this conflict can be peacefully ended in some grand conference is the height of hubris. Global powers have tried to deal with this conflict unsuccessfully for centuries. The U.S. is just latest to join the fray.

In the end, it is two vicious dogs in a death match, and the best one can do is pick your dog. Clearly America has picked Israel, and having done so it is in our interest to make sure our dog wins.

"In short, they are saying that 1 Israeli life is worth more than six or sixty dead Palestinian children."

That seems to be the value placed on life by each side.

The Palestinians and many other Muslims glorify death - hence the suicide bombers. Israelis are heartbroken by just a single death.

I have yet to see a defense of the point that Hamas has deliberately placed its weapons and missile launch sites in and around Mosques, hospitals and schools. Why is that?

Another poster has cited various incidents by Israelis or Jews, e.g., the doctor's attack in Hebron and the assassination of Rabin. Interesting to note that these were single incidents by a single extremist, not an elected government or recognized representatives of many.

Wake up and smell the coffee, please.

What does it matter that Palestine was ruled by the Ottomans prior to World War I? Why does that mean they should not have a country? As Rightguy notes, the English and French divided up the Ottoman empire into the countries we have now after making promises, or political statements that Jewish and Arab inhabitants took as promises, that they would have self determination. The flood of Jewish refugees from Europe unbalanced the situation, and many founders of Israel could also be called terrorists, or if you like them, freedom fighters. But many Palestinians were forced off the land they had lived on for generations. Sure Israel was attacked by Arab countries, held them off, and captured more land with more people living on it. And the occupation and the increased Jewish settlements in the occupied territories continue.

Anyway, Israel continues to make enemies when it makes war, and those enemies will continue to use violence and Israel will continue to use violence against them. With US help their violence will be higher tech and more deadly and kill more civilians. But Israel will never be free or safe as long as this continues. What are they do with the democratically elected Hamas people. Invade and kill them all? Then what? Do it again in 5 years or 10 years or forever? People resist occupation, even if in seemingly self defeating and destructive ways.

As to the argument that Hamas is really responsible for killing all the civilians that Israel is killing by either being among the people and not standing aside so the Israelis can bomb them. Nazis could have said the same thing. Nazis were ruthless in reprisals. If anyone killed a Nazi in countries they occupied, Nazis might kill a hundred innocents. People resisted Nazis anyway. Even Jews in the the Warsaw ghetto resisted. Do we blame them for doing so?

The idea that anyone who doesn't approve of Israel's actions hates Israel because they hate America and America supports Israel is absolute rightwing garbage, reminiscent of the post 9/11 madness that affected America and lead to an embrace of Bush and his actions that made the world a mess. It is not a question of hating Israel, let alone America. What we have is a destructive cycle of violence that will perpetuate more violence and more death unless the cycle is reversed. Whether Israel "defends itself" against Gazan rockets by dropping bombs that kill innocents with a 100 - 1 ratio, and you like this muscularity or you don't, this is not going to end the conflict or provide security to Israelis and Palestinians.

Similarly the idea that Israelis care about life more, are more sorrowful when a loved one dies or believe less that God wants them to kill their enemies than Palestinians do, these things are just not true. (We also said this about the Vietnamese, and before that the Japanese, though in hindsight we seem to know better). Neither is the idea that this is some 4000 year old blood fued that can never end. In the Bible, Ishmael and Isaac are last together to bury their father Abraham, not to kill each other. There is no feud there nor in the Koran. Although 3000 or so years ago King David conquered his neighbors and won an empire for a few generations, they were conquered and ruled by Assyrians, Persians, Greeks and Romans. Later Jews and Moslems lived in peace more often than at war throughout history.

This is a modern conflict caused by modern reasons for conflict, land, power, the desire for a better life, and increasingly the need to undo recent wrongs. However the bloodiest wars in history were fought between France, Germany and England, all of which are getting along within prosperity and an economic union, in part because the US rebuilt Germany with the Marshall Plan.

Sure some people in Palestine are willing to die, just as some Americans are willing to die in Iraq. If we are avenging the mostly Saudis who flew planes into our buildings, they may accept resistance to Israeli occupation, embargo and invasion. If we are willing to inflict "collateral damage" on innocent civilians, or declare them not innocent because they live in Gaza and voted for Hamas (or because they live in Iraq or Afghanistan and support people who resist us), then so do they. If we blame and dehumanize them (talking about dog fights for instance) then they will blame and dehumanize us.

The logic of violence is that it only leads to more violence. The solution is not endless war but making peace, growing and nurturing institutions that value people, bring them together, and promote prosperity and well being. We wish the other Arab nations did this, and we assume they are really on our side. But the world's most powerful nation is the US. We may not be as super and omnipotent as we like to think, but with our power comes the most responsibility. The US also is most supportive of Israel and usually the most dismissive of Palestinians, in part for domestic political reasons, but also for geopolitical reasons relating to oil. The memory of the Holocaust weighs heavily on Israelis and the West, particularly because civilization failed to badly to halt evil. But Israel's long term future is in doubt if this continues, as anything but a total police state. Even then they are surrounded by too many potential enemies to expect that endless war will bring security. As someone says they need someone to get them down out of the tree they have climbed. It needs to be the rest of the world, lead by the US.

I have to say that i found this weks LRC exceptionally dissapointing. I feel that you did not even attempt to give a fair and balanced view of the situation which seems obvious to anyone outside of the States.

I will be the first to say that i have no issues with the existence of israel, i do not hate israel or israleis, but look at this from a fair an balanced point of view. ]

First, th Gaza strip is completely controlled by Israel, they control the borders, airspace and imports and exports, you tell me one state in the world, which is not considered to be occupied where this is the status quo.

Dan, I think Fatah was turned out because of corruption and the disappearance of millions of dollars in foreign aid that did not reach the people. Having said that, I have to agree that the majority of Palestinians in Gaza elected Hamas. Hamas has had an unwavering policy of violence targeting civilian targets with the ultimate objective of driving the Jews into the sea.

One can take any instance or use statistics to support any position.

I urge you all to take a big picture view of the situation and assess what the ultimate, stated goals of each side has been for decades.

It is quite sad how ignorant a number of people are about the history of this situation and the realities of it.

Hitler did not assert that Jews were trying to kill or destroy anybody. Rather, they were his scapegoat as to why Germany was in such bad shape and he despised the prosperity of numerous Jews.

The only issue with respect to Joe is whether his ridiculousness exceeds the level of inflammatory remarks made in the above post. Your stated flippant disregard for human life (on both sides) is as shocking and unacceptable as Bob Scheer's trivilization of the Israeli loss of life due to rocket fire.